Black Dog Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 And, as for the relentless culture of excuses that persists in portraying these death squads as oppressed and excluded individuals pushed to the edge by an unjust society and forced by poverty to execute young people whose only crime is to like rock music, soccer, or a cool autumn night at a sidewalk cafe, that is an insult to the world’s poor as well as to the dead. I think this is a very intelligent man. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/thinking-the-unthinkable-this-is-war/article27284617/ It`s not clear you read the whole thing. And for that reason, it is more essential than ever that we not shrink from our obligation to offer asylum to Syrians fleeing fascislamist terror. Essential that we continue to welcome migrants while working to eliminate as many as possible of the cells bent on murder. That we widen our embrace of anti-IS refugees in proportion to our efforts to deal firmly with those among them who would take advantage of our adherence to principle to infiltrate welcoming countries and pursue their criminal missions. Doing both at once is not a contradiction. First, it is the only way to deny the enemy the victory of watching us betray the open and generous mutual tolerance that is the pride of our democracies. And second, I repeat, it supports a strategy critical in all just wars, which is to prevent from coming together forces that can and should be kept apart – while reaffirming to the vast majority of France’s Muslims that they are not only our allies but also our fellow citizens. Quote
Big Guy Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/ Here you go. It's a bit of a read but quite worthwhile. Thanks for the reference - an interesting read. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Big Guy Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 ... Don't hit the bully back because that will just make him angrier has never really been a good working philosophy for those who want the pain to stop. ... Thank you for your response. You see ISIS as a bully that has to be treated as such. I see ISIS as a hydra, a serpent with nine heads, each of which, if cut off, grows back as two. The chopping off of every head results in the creation of two more. After a while you learn to not cut off heads. I believe that these bombing raids (including drone strikes which are only 10% effective) create a collateral damage that far exceeds the killing of the intended target - they serve to create more terrorists than they kill. My position is not to run away - it is to allow those locals in the area establish their own method of governance. If the government then shows aggression towards us then we act accordingly. At the moment, I cannot imagine ISIS fighters on skis and snowshoes. BTW - Why do you think they initiated that attack in Paris? What were they to gain? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Big Guy Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 More signs that the Paris attack will cause problems for moderate Muslims and push them into the arms of ISIS: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/mosques-vandalised-governors-block-syria-refugees-151117130527913.html The Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), a civil rights organisation, said on Monday that it has documented recent "vandalism, threats and hate [incidents]" in Massachusetts, Florida, Texas, Kentucky, Virginia, Nebraska, Tennessee, Ohio and New York, among other states. The wave of incidents follows declarations by at least 27 state governors - 26 from the right-wing Republican party and a Democrat - saying they will block Syrian refugees, citing last Friday's deadly attacks in Paris, claimed by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) group. I wonder to whom these refugees will turn when they run out of food? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Boges Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Wow talk about the racism of lowered expectation to say that anything less than unconditional love for all of Islam will make the Muslims that don't want to kill civilians suddenly decide that it's a good idea. Quote
Black Dog Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Wow talk about the racism of lowered expectation to say that anything less than unconditional love for all of Islam will make the Muslims that don't want to kill civilians suddenly decide that it's a good idea. I smell straw.... Quote
Smoke Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 I smell straw.... Ya we all get it.....when you don't have an argument yell "Strawman" Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 NATO wants both Assad out & replaced with a Sunni moderate regime, and ISIS defeated. That's an ideal outcome that's very ambitious, and I don't know if they can achieve all 3. The non-Islamist Sunnis in Syria seem pretty weak in the fighting so far. It would be so much easier to just back Assad, because at least Russia and Iran would be on-board. We could also use backing Assad as leverage in any kind of negotiations on any matter we want with Russia or Iran. And this could very well happen. Obama seems to backing down somewhat on Assad. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
eyeball Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Hopefully Trudeau won't get bullied into joining the axis of stupid's never-ending war. He's committing troops so I'd say his ship is readying for sea. Maybe he really wasn't ready after all. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
capricorn Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 He's committing troops so I'd say his ship is readying for sea. We already have soldiers participating in training local allied troops. As I understand, he wants to increase Canadian boots on the ground...for training of course, not combat. But which is more dangerous for our military? Dropping bombs from jets or running for cover on the ground when ISIS fighters attack their compounds? War being what it is, we may well suffer casualties. That is sure to have a sobering effect on him. Welcome to the big leagues Mr. Prime Minister. Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
ReeferMadness Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 Signs that some intelligent thought is buried in all of the military madness. “Even if we somehow did obliterate ISIL — which would be extremely difficult — if we don’t end the civil wars we will have the son of ISIL tomorrow,” said Ken Pollack, a former CIA analyst and National Security Council official whose 2002 book, "The Threatening Storm," made the case for the 2003 U.S.-led invasion to topple Saddam. "ISIL is itself is the son of Al Qaeda." For example, when the United States was launching the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe after World War II, the State Department budget was was 49 percent of the Pentagon budget. Today, "you can't get to 15 percent, never mind 50. ... That is a major limitation," Collins said in an interview. Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/isil-pentagon-syria-terror-paris-216003#ixzz3rnZYaUG2 Bombs will not solve anything. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 And this could very well happen. Obama seems to backing down somewhat on Assad. He has too...just as he did before when Assad crossed Obama's self declared "red line" on the use of chemical weapons. Next comes ground troops....no fly zones....and "peacekeepers". Canada should like that. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Smallc Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 We already have soldiers participating in training local allied troops. As I understand, he wants to increase Canadian boots on the ground...for training of course, not combat. But which is more dangerous for our military? Dropping bombs from jets or running for cover on the ground when ISIS fighters attack their compounds? War being what it is, we may well suffer casualties. That is sure to have a sobering effect on him. Welcome to the big leagues Mr. Prime Minister. Danger is less important than efficacy Quote
Scotty Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 You see ISIS as a bully that has to be treated as such. I see ISIS as a hydra, a serpent with nine heads, each of which, if cut off, grows back as two. The chopping off of every head results in the creation of two more. After a while you learn to not cut off heads. You have no basis for such defeatism. This is a group of extremists whose only reasons for military success is the incompetence of those opposing them and the fractured nature of Arab politics. It is EASILY within the capabilities of virtually any competent military to destroy the bulk of their active followers and leave the others in hiding in widely scattered locations. They are all along the borders with Turkey and Israel, and the reason they don't try to attack them is they know they'd get their heads handed to them. And their only real appeal is success. Arabs love someone who has a big pair of balls and these guys have them. Cut their balls off and most of their admirers will fall away. I believe that these bombing raids (including drone strikes which are only 10% effective) create a collateral damage that far exceeds the killing of the intended target - they serve to create more terrorists than they kill. Your belief in the ineffectiveness of drone strikes harkens back to one organization doing a review in one location, and runs contrary to what the UN and other agencies have reported on drone strokes in Afghanistan over the years. Drone and bombing raids have halted their ability to make major military movements. This was done to give the idiots in Iraq time to get their act together, but it is taking more time than most would like. BTW - Why do you think they initiated that attack in Paris? What were they to gain? They demonstrate how big their balls are, which creates more admirers for them among a certain set of idiotic, nihilistic young Muslims. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 More signs that the Paris attack will cause problems for moderate Muslims and push them into the arms of ISIS: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/mosques-vandalised-governors-block-syria-refugees-151117130527913.html The Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), a civil rights organisation, said on Monday that it has documented recent "vandalism, threats and hate [incidents]" in Massachusetts, Florida, Texas, Kentucky, Virginia, Nebraska, Tennessee, Ohio and New York, among other states. In context of the anti-black actions of some people, the anti-white actions of some people, the anti-jewish actions of some people, the anti-gay actions of some people, and the anti-everything else actions of some people, this is not a story of merit. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Moonlight Graham Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 Obama seems to backing down somewhat on Assad. How so? Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Big Guy Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 To Scotty - I envy your ability to read the minds of these fighters. What you call defeatism I call accepting reality. I have no doubt that you believe what you have posted. You appear to feel that you have a full understanding of the situation and support more of what the West has been doing. You have had your say, and I mine. Let the future actions and repercussions dictate which one of us is correct. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Moonlight Graham Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 We already have soldiers participating in training local allied troops. As I understand, he wants to increase Canadian boots on the ground...for training of course, not combat. But which is more dangerous for our military? Dropping bombs from jets or running for cover on the ground when ISIS fighters attack their compounds? War being what it is, we may well suffer casualties. That is sure to have a sobering effect on him. Welcome to the big leagues Mr. Prime Minister. If you're going to commit to fighting ISIS militarily half-ass or "symbolically", I'd say flying Jets would be much safer than boots on ground training. You also avoid any chance of selling/giving arms to the enemy (or potential future enemy). Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Big Guy Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 ... They demonstrate how big their balls are, which creates more admirers for them among a certain set of idiotic, nihilistic young Muslims. I have no doubt that you maintain that view. I have more confidence in mine and those who understand the situation far better than you or I. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/isil-hostage-nicolasenin-151117172352361.html "ISIS, by striking us on French soil, wanted nothing than to provoke an escalation," the journalist said. "As a result, it's obvious what it was looking for was not for France to withdraw from the coalition striking it in Syria, but the opposite. It wanted to cause further escalation in the military involvement of France." "What it [iSIL] was willing is what President Hollande is giving it - more air strikes - it is interested in air strikes. This military intervention confirms its propaganda. "These air strikes are actually helping ISIS propaganda. They allow it to tell the Syrian population, especially in Raqqa, that they are being trapped in the city, that they are being pounded by the air forces of so many countries." On Tuesday, French defence officials said that, for the second time in less than 24 hours, fighter jets targeted Raqqa, the de-facto capital of ISIL in northern Syria. "[Air strikes are] confirming its progapanda and its message, saying 'We are the only strong body capable to protect you because the rest of the world is against you. We are here, we can protect you because we are powerful.' This is the confirmation of the message that it is sending." I guess Scotty and I are getting very different messages. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
dre Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) So we stand by and let them kill our families? No, but we stop killing THEIR families too. We should disengage completely from the middle east. It might not be a perfect solution but we know the current approach makes things worse. And Canada in particular should have no policy or presence there at all. Edited November 18, 2015 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Big Guy Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 For those who still think that ramping up the killing in ISIS controlled areas in Syria and Iraq is the answer: http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/17/opinions/isis-no-military-answer-paton-walsh/index.html Now some might question the validity of this presentation in that it is anti-American and prejudiced. If CNN is not a spokes media for the grand old USA then who is? Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
WestCoastRunner Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 No, but we stop killing THEIR families too. We should disengage completely from the middle east. It might not be a perfect solution but we know the current approach makes things worse. Nothing I have read or heard so far has convinced me to completely disengage. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 Canada's PM Trudeau has to disengage from bombing ISIS....campaign promise. I guess the rest of the world will just have to carry on without him. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Big Guy Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 Nothing I have read or heard so far has convinced me to completely disengage. How is this for a reason: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/isil-wants-to-lure-the-worlds-unbelievers-to-syria-for-a-final-armageddon-like-battle-analysts ISIL wants to lure the world’s unbelievers to Syria for a final, Armageddon-like battle, analysts say. Get any Canadians out of there as fast as possible. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
WestCoastRunner Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 How is this for a reason: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/isil-wants-to-lure-the-worlds-unbelievers-to-syria-for-a-final-armageddon-like-battle-analysts ISIL wants to lure the worlds unbelievers to Syria for a final, Armageddon-like battle, analysts say. Get any Canadians out of there as fast as possible. Please. All you have done is point me to an article without providing quotes for your argument. Plenty of arguments exist in that article that confirms we need to do a full frontal assault to protect innocent civilians. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
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