Stripping citizenship.

[Guest]

Why would you want to strip a terrorist of citizenship, and then deport them to a likely terrorist hotbed country? Where they can then commit more terrorist acts and plot against us again, or our allies? Why not just keep their citizenship but lock them up behind bars for a lifetime of hard labour with no chance of parole? Everybody's happy then...except the terrorist.

If we had the balls to actually do that, that would be great. But we don't, generally. We set a sentence, then let people out when they complete some percentage of it, even if they are still dangerous. Then, to protect their privacy, we don't tell the people they are gunning for that they are out. No reason why we wouldn't do that for terrorists too.

I simply cannot understand why the option of stripping citizenship from someone to whom you have awarded it, only to have them spit in your face, is seen as such a bad one. It seems a pretty obvious option to me.

[cybercoma]

That's not how statistics work.

+/- 3%

That means an answer with 33% is not statistically different than an answer of 30%.

There's not some flat 3 point swing in all surveys for all questions. It depends on what is being analyzed and what techniques are used. Error has to be calculated and should be reported, but often times isn't unless it's an article for a peer-reviewed journal, as opposed to a policy document or an executive summary.

[The_Squid]

There's not some flat 3 point swing in all surveys for all questions. It depends on what is being analyzed and what techniques are used. Error has to be calculated and should be reported, but often times isn't unless it's an article for a peer-reviewed journal, as opposed to a policy document or an executive summary.

I understand it's not flat.... but around 2-5% is pretty typical. But you're right.... it's only used if the proper statistical analysis is done ont he survey.... otherwise, who the hell knows.

[WestCanMan]

Why would you want to strip a terrorist of citizenship, and then deport them to a likely terrorist hotbed country? Where they can then commit more terrorist acts and plot against us again, or our allies? Why not just keep their citizenship but lock them up behind bars for a lifetime of hard labour with no chance of parole? Everybody's happy then...except the terrorist.

I don't think it's a matter of stripping their citizenship and sending them off to another country without going to jail. They stay in jail for 30 years and leave the country the day they get out.

[WestCanMan]

If we had the balls to actually do that, that would be great. But we don't, generally. We set a sentence, then let people out when they complete some percentage of it, even if they are still dangerous. Then, to protect their privacy, we don't tell the people they are gunning for that they are out. No reason why we wouldn't do that for terrorists too.

I wish I could say that you were wrong in some way, but you nailed it.

[Big Guy]

How can you evaluate the number of crimes which are unreported? An incident is only a crime after it is reported, investigated and judged a crime.

If it is unreported originally, then what validity can one give a survey that gives the results of a report on unreported crimes? Why is this report valid?

[Guest]

How can you evaluate the number of crimes which are unreported? An incident is only a crime after it is reported, investigated and judged a crime.

I disagree with this. A crime is the commission an act that is against the law and is punishable by the same. You don't have to be caught.

[Smallc]

I disagree with this. A crime is the commission an act that is against the law and is punishable by the same. You don't have to be caught.

You can know if it was actually a crime unless what he said above happens. I doubt there's much unpreported violent crime for example. On the other hand, I would imagine many petty crimes go unreported because people would rather not be bothered.

[Guest]

You can know if it was actually a crime unless what he said above happens. I doubt there's much unpreported violent crime for example. On the other hand, I would imagine many petty crimes go unreported because people would rather not be bothered.

They would still be petty crimes. Not petty potential crimes.

A drunk driver commits a crime everytime she gets behind the wheel. She doesn't have to be caught.

[notca]

For Canadian born terrorist we need an place of exile like the British exiled criminals to Damiens Land. Canada has plenty of remote, uninhabited northern territory where Canadian born convicted terrorists could be sent, fenced off from civilization. Air drop them the essential to sustain themselves and let them terrorize each other.

New Canadians from another country should definitely be deported, but why were they admitted in the first place?

I think a large part of the problem with 'home grown terrorists' is in the immigration of the parents who raised them with old world ideas to fight for Islam and kill infidels. Islam is not compatible with Western societies and will always cause problems. Many countries are finding that out too late much to their sorrow.

[Argus]

You can know if it was actually a crime unless what he said above happens. I doubt there's much unpreported violent crime for example.

Why would you doubt there's much unreported crime when Statistics Canada does a very long and complicated survey of Canadians which determines otherwise? Do you doubt many sexual assaults go unreported?

[Argus]

If it is unreported originally, then what validity can one give a survey that gives the results of a report on unreported crimes? Why is this report valid?

Apparently your support of Statistics Canada and it's interviews and studies on Canada does not extend beyond the census.

[overthere]

Because it's a punishment you can't give to someone who doesn't have dual citizenship. It means that those with dual citizenship are punished more severely for the same crime. And I don't believe a just system gives out different punishments to people for the same crimes based solely on where someone's parents are from. If somebody is a citizen here, then we punish them according to our laws and the same as we would punish anyone else who is a citizen here.

How are they punished more severely for the same crime?

Is deportation more severe than prison? What metrics did you employ to arrive at that conclusion?

If a person with dual citizenship feels at risk of being deported from Canada(by committing treasonous acts, for example), they do have a couple of viable options. The first is not to commit the acts. The second is to first renounce your citizenship in another country, then commit the treasonous acts.

Oh, and we can stop talking about Canada or Australia stripping people of their sole citizenship, then sending them somewhere else without documentation.

Both Oz and Canuckistan are long time signatories to UN conventions that prohibit states from deliberately creating stateless persons.

[WestCanMan]

For Canadian born terrorist we need an place of exile like the British exiled criminals to Damiens Land. Canada has plenty of remote, uninhabited northern territory where Canadian born convicted terrorists could be sent, fenced off from civilization. Air drop them the essential to sustain themselves and let them terrorize each other.

New Canadians from another country should definitely be deported, but why were they admitted in the first place?

IMO terrorists should get the death penalty regardless of where they are from, no need to discriminate or to waste money building, maintaining and manning remote prisons.

I think a large part of the problem with 'home grown terrorists' is in the immigration of the parents who raised them with old world ideas to fight for Islam and kill infidels. Islam is not compatible with Western societies and will always cause problems. Many countries are finding that out too late much to their sorrow.

I don't think that it's nearly that simple. The western bibles give just as much license to discriminate and kill as the quran does. If the old testament was invented today it would be classified as hate literature and would not be allowed to be published here in Canada. It's grandfathered in just like the quran. There's ample room for a follower of Islam or Judeo-Christianity to believe that their religious obligation is to kill each other (and you're unaware of your history if you think that there's never been reason for decent, non-muslim people to fear large groups of J-C's - reasons like genocide for example). The place where those two tectonic plates meet brings out the worst in humanity.

We honestly need to think about what's going on in that part of the world right now that makes so many people slither towards the dark side of their religion. What could both sides do to make it better? There's some room on the sunny side but it has less traction.

That's step one and almost noone is there because both sides have too many good reasons to blame the other. It's doubtful that people can get there in time to stave off conflict on a greater scale than what we have known in our lifetime. Religion and common sense are not exactly birds of a feather, but religion is stronger than atheism so here we are in a world where humans kill themselves along with other humans for the satisfaction of their imaginary friends.

The day will probably come when it becomes prudent for me or my descendants to pretend to believe in a higher power, but it's not today. I'm not a part of that war and I don't want to import it to Canada.

[notca]

IMO terrorists should get the death penalty regardless of where they are from, no need to discriminate or to waste money building, maintaining and manning remote prisons.

---SNIP---

I am not a fan of any organized religion but I must say that those religions that follow the Bible have evolved to the point where they are no longer killing each other because of their differences. Even the hard core fundamentalists, although annoying and dogmatic, do not go so far as to kill in God's name. More and more, people are abandoning the churches, perhaps keeping their beliefs but not subscribing to the OT stringent rules.

However Islam has never evolved in centuries. It is an angry and vengeful religion which totally dominates the lives of its followers. Muslims have been involved in conflict with their various sects and with other religious groups, even atheists, since time immemorial.

Out of curiosity I read enough of the Quran to know that it is a guide to violence. It is the goal of Islam to dominate in the world. Those Muslims who claim to be peaceful may appear to be, may even believe they are, but if called upon by their religious leader to defend Islam and smite the 'infidels', it will be their duty to do it.

Quite frankly, it scares the hell out of me! History tells us where this new movement by the refugees is very likely headed and I never in my life hoped so much to be wrong.

I do not hate Muslims but I do hate their religion and I think they have been duped, brainwashed and/or forced to follow it from birth. I don't believe it will ever live peacefully with the many diverse beliefs and non-believers in our western societies.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Charles Anthony
[---SNIP---]

[cybercoma]

I understand it's not flat.... but around 2-5% is pretty typical.

That's what I'm saying. 2-5% is not necessarily typical. It's typical for a phone survey of public opinion, but that's not what you guys are discussing.

[cybercoma]

How are they punished more severely for the same crime?

Because they get an additional punishment that others can't get.

[WestCanMan]

I do hate their religion and I think they have been duped, brainwashed and/or forced to follow it from birth. I don't believe it will ever live peacefully with the many diverse beliefs and non-believers in our western societies.

With all the knowledge that we have about the universe it's hard to understand how anyone can believe in any creation-based religion unless they were duped, brainwashed and/or forced to follow it from birth, but I don't like to be the guy to tell a person that there's no Santa Claus. Especially when they will kill you for it.

[notca]

Is there no such charge as Treason any more? That is what it is when someone attacks his own country. It used to be punishable by death. Are Canadian born terrorists not guilty of treason?

[notca]

With all the knowledge that we have about the universe it's hard to understand how anyone can believe in any creation-based religion unless they were duped, brainwashed and/or forced to follow it from birth, but I don't like to be the guy to tell a person that there's no Santa Claus. Especially when they will kill you for it.

Belief or non-belief in God is a very personal thing and I don't see as it is anyone else's business what others believe. I respect the right of people to believe as they please as long as they don't use those beliefs to infringe or supress the rights of others.

Here in Canada we differentiate between crimes and sins. Crimes are punishable be law, sins (real or perceived) are not. That is what religious freedom is about as I understand it.

Not so in Islamic countries. Although Turkey, Jordan, maybe a couple of others (?) are secular, most Mid-eastern countries follow Islamic law which punishes people for heresy, adultery, etc., usually by stoning or beheading. And their treatment of women as possessions is deplorable to Westerners. We see that attitude acted upon by Muslims in Canada where the Male rules the household with an iron fist and where so-called 'honour killings' are committed. That's the scary thing. We have no way of knowing which of our immigrants/refugees subscribe to those harsh, archaic practices until they get here. When enough of them populate the country they will create havoc in our society.

If we cannot revoke their citizenship and have them deported or otherwise isolated what defense do we have to protect our freedoms?

Edited November 9, 2015 by Charles Anthony
fixed mal-formed quote

[Army Guy]

Is there no such charge as Treason any more? That is what it is when someone attacks his own country. It used to be punishable by death. Are Canadian born terrorists not guilty of treason?

Actually there still on the law books , unless you can provide a better source. I think you'll find it covers a lot more than attacking ones own country,

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/treason/

or this Law site, which states the law is still there, however questions if anyone will be charged with it, as the law is to old, and needs revision.

http://www.c2cjournal.ca/2010/03/has-treason-run-its-course-in-canada/

[notca]

@Army Guy, thank you for that info.

Well, if governments don't think treason is serious enough to punish there's not much we can do about it. But I think it's a dangerous mistake to tolerate treasonous acts and even defend traitors. In most cases they don't even like to call them terrorists, they're 'disturbed individuals', 'lone wolves', 'misguided youths', anything but the real thing.

I think young people who want to go abroad and fight with ISIS should be sent to do just that. If they think that kind of life is what they want they just might find its not all that after all! And it would be better to have them killing people somewhere else than here in their homeland.

I think Trudeau is so naïve he thinks group hugs and singing a few verses of Kumbaya will make everybody 'nice'. He doesn't realize that you can't negotiate with evil people. Maybe it will a take a disaster that affects his own young family personally to wake him up.

[Smallc]

Why would you doubt there's much unreported crime when Statistics Canada does a very long and complicated survey of Canadians which determines otherwise? Do you doubt many sexual assaults go unreported?

Do you think many murders go unreported? Overall, their trend has been headed in the exact same direction as overall reported crime. The crime severity index is consistently falling. Crime

Is certainly less serious than it was. Unreported crime is absolutely mythical, as it was never a crime if it was never proven as such.

[eyeball]

As much as Kumbaya makes people want to puke and nail saviours to crosses, it's the only thing that will ever save our sorry asses.

Doing into others yadda yadda really is the only sustainable path forward. It's an e=mc2-like formula that describes the best way to get along.

[Big Guy]

One nations traitor is another nations hero. That is why nations would much rather trade traitors and spies than execute them. It is much better to save your hero than take pleasure in killing your traitor.