Truth and Reconciliation... Legitimacy

jacee · June 12, 2015

Funny how this is now harpers fault when the dam catholic church is the guilty party.

And Anglican and United/Presbyterian.

BUT the 'Indian' Residential Schools program was federally (under) funded, federal policy.

Harper has done more then any other government. So what did the liberals do under chretien ,nothing and at one time chretien was the minister of native affairs and did nothing. So harper tries and get nothing but grief.

Harper tries? When?

Harper is PM during the Truth Commission so it's his responsibility.

.

Canada_First · June 12, 2015

You want me to cite those problematic statistics? There are people other than aboriginals who are statistics in this case. Poor people of other races too. Except that aboriginal peoples are disproportionately impoverished, as I mentioned in my post.

So what's the solution? Give them all a 100,000 a year? Actually that would be cheaper then what we're doing now...

Canada_First · June 12, 2015

Residential School Survivor Stories are not ancient history.

If you were Native, these would be your parents and grandparents stories, and perhaps your own.

I am a grandmother.

I have an 11 year old grandson.

While I was 11, living a safe happy life in small town Ontario, Charlie was running away from brutal beatings in a residential school:

Another warrior, Charlie, 48, has a soft and slow voice that can be difficult to follow, but his stories are worth the effort. He was put in residential school at the age of seven and escaped several times, each time getting sent to a school further from home.

Four years and six escapes later, he was in a school near Sault Ste-Marie, where the nuns beat him unconscious with hockey sticks. He still has the scars. "I knew that if I stayed, they'd kill me, so I escaped again. I made it to Winnipeg [1,450 kilometres away] on foot through the bush, living off the land, fooling the police dogs in the woods. They didn't catch me that time until I was 21," he says.

The other men his age have similar residential school stories. Nothing can happen to them in jail or in a gunfight that's worse than what already has.

http://grannyrantson.blogspot.ca/2008/07/indigenous-peoples-and-canadians-must.html?m=1

I was at a film/speaker night about residential schools. One Indigenous man in the film from the west coast spoke of boys being lined up each night to await their turn to be raped.

Afterwards, an Indigenous man in his 60's near me wiped his tears and said

"It was the same in Ontario. They lined us up. It was ..."

"systematic?" I said.

"Yes. It was the same everywhere across the country ... like it was ... "

"planned?" I said.

He nodded.

Rape is a weapon of war, terror ... and genocide.

.

What proof gave you got that any of that actually happened? People lie, especially when a lot of money is involved. They're asking for a Trillion dollars here at least. So I'll need more than a First Nation persons story. I need verifiable proof.

Hal 9000 · June 13, 2015

Well in the case of Walmart their application had already been denied by city hall. Theres also cost savings, and saving in red tape. White folks make too many stupid little rules and regulations.

And the piece of reserve land is pretty much right in the middle of the population center, as is often the case.

The principles involved in making a reservation economy work are no different than any other economy... you need to limit the flight of dollars. Even the poorest of people spend money... so the key is to make sure natives dont need to leave reserve to spend it. They need to be able to buy food, gas, liquor, cash checks, etc etc. This is where the focus should be. And if at all possible they need to be luring more dollars into the community by setting up or allowing businesses to operate that sell products and services to people off reserve.

You're talking about reserves that are basically on the outskirts of Victoria, Nanaimo, Duncan, Campbell River etc etc. Sure if you build a shopping centre featuring Walmart, Canadian tire, superstore, shell, a bank, starbucks - the people will come. These aren't FN success stories, this is FN's selling (or leasing) land to white corporations who in turn do everything from preparing ground to cutting the grand opening banners. The FN's do nothing but sign off on it. Now, what about the other 95% of reserves that don't shoulder on a major centre.

Oh yeah, and all those stupid little rules and regulations the white people want are environmental concerns (Bird sanctuaries, wetlands, rivers etc.), but why should that get in the way of FN's selling land to Walmart.

Michael Hardner · June 13, 2015

What proof gave you got that any of that actually happened?

That the residential schools catastrophe happened ? There have been years of investigation and testimony. Is that what you're asking ?

Scott Mayers · June 13, 2015

That the residential schools catastrophe happened ? There have been years of investigation and testimony. Is that what you're asking ?

Why can't most people seem to recognize the difference between the types of evidence that exist? Testimonials are NOT formally pure forms of evidence. They are INDUCED not DEDUCED. Nor are we able to directly observe such evidences as they are secondary reports of observations.

What is being asked of many of us here is whether there are direct proof? If such abuses actually occurred, why do we have no criminal convictions of anyone to even give such direct force to the claims? To protect the 'victims'? Not valid since if this abuse occurred since the beginning, what and whom are we protecting to those who have long past died?

The ONLY reason this is being quickly 'accepted' by governments is to preserve the nature of the moronic religious institutions, traditions, cultures, and the certain losses that would occur financially and culturally to the establishment of these institutes and the people behind them! All parties here support them because all of them represent significant religious concerns.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Scott Mayers

cybercoma · June 13, 2015

Why can't most people seem to recognize the difference between the types of evidence that exist? Testimonials are NOT formally pure forms of evidence. They are INDUCED not DEDUCED. Nor are we able to directly observe such evidences as they are secondary reports of observations.

How are they secondary reports? They're first-hand observations and experiences. What you're suggesting is that no court case is valid because first-hand accounts, eye witnesses, and testimonies themselves are invalid and "secondary reports," which is completely wrong.

drummindiver · June 13, 2015

How are they secondary reports? They're first-hand observations and experiences. What you're suggesting is that no court case is valid because first-hand accounts, eye witnesses, and testimonies themselves are invalid and "secondary reports," which is completely wrong.

If the abuse was as rampant and severe as has been reported, there would be supporting documentation. Hospital records, police records etc. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I do feel that many of the stories that are just now coming to light may be of the jumping on the potential money bandwagon variety.

Scott Mayers · June 13, 2015

How are they secondary reports? They're first-hand observations and experiences. What you're suggesting is that no court case is valid because first-hand accounts, eye witnesses, and testimonies themselves are invalid and "secondary reports," which is completely wrong.

If we are hearing someone report on what they experienced in some other place and time, how do you propose that this is certain other than your option to trust the person telling you? I know the moon exists because I witness it. A blind person may "induce" this as 'true' for practical considerations but they have no deductive validity based on other people's words regardless of how unanimous it can be.

As for practical purposes, yes, we still rely on such less valid 'evidence' as secondary supports -- but they should be accompanied with real deductive evidence that has not been provided. And since there are nearly 40,000 supposed claims of abuse and yet not even ONE conviction, it makes this whole thing ever more suspect.

On Guard for Thee · June 13, 2015

If we are hearing someone report on what they experienced in some other place and time, how do you propose that this is certain other than your option to trust the person telling you? I know the moon exists because I witness it. A blind person may "induce" this as 'true' for practical considerations but they have no deductive validity based on other people's words regardless of how unanimous it can be.

As for practical purposes, yes, we still rely on such less valid 'evidence' as secondary supports -- but they should be accompanied with real deductive evidence that has not been provided. And since there are nearly 40,000 supposed claims of abuse and yet not even ONE conviction, it makes this whole thing ever more suspect.

There are many first hand accounts of what happened to them is those schools. Nothing secondary about it.They are not blind people wondering about the moon. We have court cases every day were witnesses testify about what occurred in certain events. Theses schools operated for over a century, affecting some 150000 children, of which there are tens of thousands still alive. It should be no surprise that we are still hearing victims first hand accounts of the abuse.

cybercoma · June 13, 2015

There are school reports and government documents about it. You guys may not have read them and not studied the history, but they're there.

Michael Hardner · June 13, 2015

There are school reports and government documents about it. You guys may not have read them and not studied the history, but they're there.

In a small way, you're helping the 'truth' part - merely by posting a small piece of information to the small number of people who have not been listening to the story up until now.

Canada_First · June 13, 2015

That the residential schools catastrophe happened ? There have been years of investigation and testimony. Is that what you're asking ?

how do we know for sure that all those people are telling the truth? I wouldn't put it past some to lie so they can get a large settlement whenever the govt decides to pay out.

Michael Hardner · June 13, 2015

how do we know for sure that all those people are telling the truth? I wouldn't put it past some to lie so they can get a large settlement whenever the govt decides to pay out.

I think you need to look at Cybercoma's answer to you above first.

WestCoastRunner · June 13, 2015

What puzzles me about people questioning the credibility of FN victim impact statements is that we didn't hear this outcry when victims came forward to accuse members from the Catholic Church of assault. Or when nhl players came forward to accuse coaches of assault.

The questioning of FN's statements is clearly based on racism

Edited June 13, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

Michael Hardner · June 13, 2015

The questioning of FN's statements is clearly based on racism

My experience tells me that when you make the jump to try and divine what is in someone's heart, you will not get anywhere with people who agree with that person.

Can you answer the question about what was different between such cases based on facts that everyone can agree to ?

bush_cheney2004 · June 13, 2015

Gee...I'm wondering why all of this wasn't tracked and reported in Canadian media as it was happening.

Where/what was the CBC doing to inform Canadians mid century and later ?

On Guard for Thee · June 13, 2015

Gee...I'm wondering why all of this wasn't tracked and reported in Canadian media as it was happening.

Where/what was the CBC doing to inform Canadians mid century and later ?

I thought it has always been your contention that CBC was government controlled. So why would they allow reportage of the abuse they themselves were creating.

Canada_First · June 13, 2015

There are school reports and government documents about it. You guys may not have read them and not studied the history, but they're there.

Yes as I'm aware but t8hat doesn't make them all factual. A lot of people had experiences and wrote the books of the Bible based on those experiences yet many don't believe it to be true. What makes this set if stories so special? What makes these people special and beyond lying for money? We're talking about human beings. Humans lie, especially when a lot if money is involved. So we're simply to take these random people's word that they're telling the truth? Based on faith?

WestCoastRunner · June 13, 2015

My experience tells me that when you make the jump to try and divine what is in someone's heart, you will not get anywhere with people who agree with that person.

Can you answer the question about what was different between such cases based on facts that everyone can agree to ?

I don't believe there is any difference. Every victim provided a first hand account and for some odd reason it's the FN impact statements that are being dismissed as heresay.

I'm not really sure what else it is you are asking.

WestCoastRunner · June 13, 2015

Gee...I'm wondering why all of this wasn't tracked and reported in Canadian media as it was happening.

Where/what was the CBC doing to inform Canadians mid century and later ?

Are you insinuating the FN victims are lying?

TimG · June 13, 2015

I don't believe there is any difference. Every victim provided a first hand account and for some odd reason it's the FN impact statements that are being dismissed as heresay.

People lie when there is incentive and whenever hearsay evidence is presented the incentives to lie must be considered. For example, abuse allegations often come up during acrimonious child custody cases so it is reasonable to ask whether the accuser is lying to gain advantage in the dispute.

When it comes to residential schools issue various native groups have turned it into a religion that ensures that any native person who did not have a bad experience would pressured to be quiet about it and people who exaggerate and/or lie are rewarded with attention and sympathy from their peers. While there can be no smoke without fire, anyone who thinks these stories have not been systematically exaggerated is extremely naive and does not understand human nature.

Edited June 13, 2015 by TimG

bush_cheney2004 · June 13, 2015

Are you insinuating the FN victims are lying?

Not at all....I'm insinuating that the CBC and other Canadian media were purposely asleep at the wheel.

I guess it would have caused quite the ruckus:

In other news today, the RCMP forcefully removed 173 "aboriginal" children from their parents and delivered them into the hands of church officials who run our very popular Residential School System. Like so many Canadian parents experience, it was like going to summer camp for the youngsters.

Up next...hockey news !

Edited June 13, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

Michael Hardner · June 13, 2015

...for some odd reason it's the FN impact statements that are being dismissed as heresay.

There could be other reasons. I'm not saying it isn't racism or it is.

Charges were laid in TRC cases and hockey abuse cases.

http://www.trc.ca/websites/trcinstitution/index.php?p=8

WestCoastRunner · June 13, 2015

There could be other reasons. I'm not saying it isn't racism or it is.

Charges were laid in TRC cases and hockey abuse cases.

http://www.trc.ca/websites/trcinstitution/index.php?p=8

You just made my point