Truth and Reconciliation... Legitimacy

[On Guard for Thee]

No one has said that. The opposite has already been stated. All 11 crowns would have to agree.

And whats the likelihood of that do you think...

[Je suis Omar]

I think the only people who might have the political will to try this would be the lawyers who would have endless work from it

That's true. No truth, no reconciliation. What's so difficult about acknowledging the obvious; the Canadian government, thru numerous administrations, devised and implemented a policy of genocide.

Canada ain't the lily white bunch of hosers it makes itself out to be. It's quite amazing to see the various news groups positioning themselves as being so forthright and honest when they have been hiding this genocide all along.

Canada's news organizations are like Fox affiliates.

[dre]

You are making more complicated than it has to be.

No youre just ignoring the issues the government would have to deal with. Political, legal, and practical issues.

And I already conceded this is theoretically possible, but only in the same way that "EVERYTHING" is theoretically possible. The government in theory could also make it legal under Canadian law to just march them all into gas chambers.

But again... this is just not going to happen, so we might as well have a constructive conversation about what solutions are possible in the real world.

Edited June 11, 2015 by dre

[TimG]

And I already conceded this is theoretically possible, but only in the same way that "EVERYTHING" is theoretically possible. The government in theory could also make it legal under Canadian law to just march them all into gas chambers.

The difference is getting rid of aboriginal privilege is morally sound course of action that is consistent with the values of an egalitarian democracy.

[cybercoma]

The difference is getting rid of aboriginal privilege is morally sound course of action that is consistent with the values of an egalitarian democracy.

Do you know nothing of the abuse they've faced? The widespread and systematic attempt to decimate them and their culture?

Yeah. Morally sound to rip up negotiated agreements. Listen to yourself.

[Hal 9000]

Reserves are a cesspool of dysfunction and abuse. Spousal abuse, child abuse, drug abuse, sexual abuse, alcoholism, FAS, incest, poverty, animal abuse, abuse of gov't (taxpayers) money, single (teenage) pregnancy, poor education, theft, health issues...good grief, you name it.

The idea of keeping people on the outside of society is doing nothing except hurting them. Close the reserves and bring them into modern day society.

[TimG]

Do you know nothing of the abuse they've faced? The widespread and systematic attempt to decimate them and their culture?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Yeah. Morally sound to rip up negotiated agreements. Listen to yourself.

Negotiated agreements based on blood lines are immoral and inconsistent with the values of an egalitarian democracy. Make the agreements regular corporate contracts and subject to regulation and taxation then you would have an argument. Edited June 11, 2015 by TimG

[WestCoastRunner]

Or they could keep the funding and the reserves, and focus on rooting out corruption, and on making good investments. One of the local bands where I live has done just that... they hired an outside firm to manage the bands finances and they allowed walmart, superstore, shell, canadian tire, TD, and dozens of other businesses to set up shop on their land. They certainly arent without social problems but for the most part the reserve looks just like any other middle class neighborhood... nice modern homes, etc. And the businesses on the reserve agree to hire a certain ammount of first nations.

Thats probably the smartest approach for them to take. Taking any kind of one-time lump sum payment without first dealing with corrupt chiefs and band councils would probably be a mistake. I think any real financial advisor to the bands would instead push to keep their funding indefinately, and make smart investments with it.

I think this is great. I wish we would hear more of these success stories.

[cybercoma]

Negotiated agreements based on blood lines are immoral and inconsistent with the values of an egalitarian democracy. Make the agreements regular corporate contracts and subject to regulation and taxation then you would have an argument.

They're based on nations that existed here before we established ours and many of which still exist. They were nation to nation agreements. Edited June 11, 2015 by cybercoma

[Argus]

Nonsensical. The fact that "some" reserves may not be viable is not a reason to dismantle the entire system including the majority of reserves that are. And youre conflating numerous issues, and hopping from one to the next as each one gets picked apart.

Can you think of any other ethnic group in Canada that you believe would be better off living on their own out in the woods without jobs or any hope of jobs?

And if not, what makes you think Indians are the exception?

[Argus]

Again, lawyers would be laughing all the way to the bank.

The federal government alone will spend three hundred billion dollars on supporting the current generation of natives on their quaint little reserves. What's legal fees compared to that?

[TimG]

They're based on nations that existed here before we established ours and many of which still exist. They were nation to nation agreements.

The SCC has been clear that the only sovereign entity is Canada and any agreements the natives have are within the context of Canada and Canadian law. Whatever they were before is irrelevant. Peerages in the UK used to come with numerous privileges that have been systematically removed. As with natives, people received their peerage entitlements in return for service to the crown. It is generally agreed that in the UK that it makes no difference how great contribution someone made in the past the idea that this should result in perpetual privilege passed down to their descendants for all time is ridiculous. Edited June 11, 2015 by TimG

[jacee]

Nonsensical. The fact that "some" reserves may not be viable is not a reason to dismantle the entire system including the majority of reserves that are. And youre conflating numerous issues, and hopping from one to the next as each one gets picked apart.

Some remote reserves sit on diamonds, oil, gas, ore ... and now that Aboriginal rights must be accommodated

- a say in development and a share in resources -

those communities are looking at a brand new context.

.

[jacee]

The federal government alone will spend three hundred billion dollars on supporting the current generation of natives on their quaint little reserves.

That's the deal we made.

.

Edited June 11, 2015 by jacee

[Hal 9000]

I think this is great. I wish we would hear more of these success stories.

Except Dre couldn't be more wrong. It would likely take me 3 guesses to figure out the "success story" he's talking about, but either way you have to know that other than maybe 4-5 families that capitalized from "selling" out to corporations, the rest of the First Nations in that community are just as poor as they were 5, 10, 20 or 50 years ago.

Besides, he's talking about a reserve in a community of 35-40,000+ people (mostly anglos). Much different than reserves in Klemtu, Kyouquot, Kitamaat etc.

[Argus]

That's the deal we made.

.

And it was bad for the natives then, and it's STILL bad for the natives. It's bad for any group of people to shuffle them off into the deep woods, pat them on the head, flip them a nickel and tell them to enjoy their quaint local culture. Their old culture was as dumb, as primitive and as superstitious as ours was centuries ago. Putting walls around it and pretending we should do all in our power to keep it alive is crazy. It's 2015 and the only people that live their lives out in the woods without jobs are hermits with mental problems, and natives.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Argus

[WestCoastRunner]

Can you think of any other ethnic group in Canada that you believe would be better off living on their own out in the woods without jobs or any hope of jobs?

And if not, what makes you think Indians are the exception?

You only need to comprehend dres other post regarding progress on reservation communities. If these type of community projects can be implemented across Canada on all reservation communities it would ensure that FN communities retain their cultural identity. Basically the same as Quebec is doing to retain their identity. They have to start somewhere. Edited June 11, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

[jacee]

Those treaties were originally made in US territories made with Iroquois in the US. Why would the Queen ask Harper for permission to do something that was based on US soil?

The Silver Covenant Chain Treaty is in effect in Canada too as the Haudenosaunee people have always spanned the border, England did too back then when there was no border, and Canada assumed all treaties at Confederation.

.

Edited June 11, 2015 by jacee

[Smallc]

You only need to comprehend dres other post regarding progress on reservation communities. If these type of community projects can be implemented across Canada on all reservation communities it would ensure that FN communities retain their cultural identity. Basically the same as Quebec is doing to retain their identity. They have to start somewhere.

Even a good reserve like the one that I live next too is terrible. They have good finances, a successful construction company, and things are improving. At the same time, they have a rampant prescription drug abuse problem that's getting worse with no end in sight and a systemic issue with alcoholism that has existed for decades. There's nothing for 70% of the people to do, and so they rot on welfare and handouts from the VLT program. And that's a good reserve.

Now, lets talk about Shamattawa. The things you're talking about aren't going to work on a reserve like the one I live next to, and they certainly aren't going to work there. You have no idea because you don't live with this.

[Smallc]

The Silver Covenant Chain Treaty is in effect in Canada too as the Haudenosaunee people have always spanned the border, England did too back then when there was no border, and Canada assumed all treaties at Confederation.

.

All treaties for land the Crown no longer controls no longer apply. You have no idea, and that's not surprising.

[Smallc]

That's the deal we made.

.

So a bad deal should continue forever, unchanged?

[Smallc]

Some remote reserves sit on diamonds, oil, gas, ore ... and now that Aboriginal rights must be accommodated

- a say in development and a share in resources -

those communities are looking at a brand new context.

.

Some reserves can capitalize. Some can't. They'd do even better if they weren't reserves.

[jacee]

TimG, on 11 Jun 2015 - 2:30 PM, said:

[The Queen of Canada] has no authority to make any legally binding commitments on behalf of the Canadian government.

Are you sure about that? The monarchy gives the law in Canada power. She's the only reason we have laws.

True.

I doubt she'd be making any new ones for us, but she can renew her old ones as needed ... and she did.

The 'honour of the Crown' must be upheld.

Edited June 11, 2015 by jacee

[WestCoastRunner]

Even a good reserve like the one that I live next too is terrible. They have good finances, a successful construction company, and things are improving. At the same time, they have a rampant prescription drug abuse problem that's getting worse with no end in sight and a systemic issue with alcoholism that has existed for decades. There's nothing for 70% of the people to do, and so they rot on welfare and handouts from the VLT program. And that's a good reserve.

Now, lets talk about Shamattawa. The things you're talking about aren't going to work on a reserve like the one I live next to, and they certainly aren't going to work there. You have no idea because you don't live with this.

Of course I have little comprehension of life on a reserve, however I understand their need to retain their cultural identity. They should be holding FN leaders accountable to progressing their communities and we should be doing everything we can to help them with this accountability.

Because they have issues towards progress doesn't mean we should throw in the towel and force them to assimilate. Let's help them so they can help themselves. They deserve the right to retain their cultural identity.

Edited June 11, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

[Smallc]

True.

I doubt she'd be making any new ones for us, but she can renew her old ones as needed ... and she did.

She is bound to follow the advice of her ministers. Her reserve powers are very limited and in a practical sense, all but 3 of them are wielded by her governor general.