Truth and Reconciliation... Legitimacy

[jacee]

Very disturbing.

We are at an important point in reconciling our relationship with Indigenous Peoples, after trying to get rid of them for 500 years, in some very heinous ways ... and all we have for discussion here is the same old few bigots derailing and dominating the discussion trying to figure out new ways to get rid of them.

?

Edited June 11, 2015 by jacee

[Smallc]

Of course I have little comprehension of life on a reserve, however I understand their need to retain their cultural identity.

Do you think that they need to live in a vacuum to do that? Do francophones live in a vacuum? Do any other ethnic groups in Canada.

They should be holding FN leaders accountable to progressing their communities and we should be doing everything we can to help them with this accountability.

How do you make progress in a place with nothing to do?

Because they have issues towards progress doesn't mean we should throw in the towel and force them to assimilate. Let's help them so they can help themselves. They deserve the right to retain their cultural identity.

Helping them to help themselves would involve making them normal citizens with all the rights and privileges thereto.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Smallc

[Smallc]

Very disturbing.

We are at an important point in reconciling our relationship with Indigenous Peoples, after trying to get rid of them for 500 years, in some very heinous ways

In order to reconcile, there has to be an attempt from both sides. This 'reconciliation' seems very one sided.

and all we have for discussion here is the same old few bigots derailing and dominating the discussion trying to figure out new ways to get rid of them.

How dare people, based on their own experience, have thoughts that might differ from yours. Enough with the bigotry and genocide talk. There's none of that going on here.

[jacee]

In order to reconcile, there has to be an attempt from both sides. This 'reconciliation' seems very one sided.

It hasn't started yet.

It's our turn.

How dare people, based on their own experience, have thoughts that might differ from yours. Enough with the bigotry and genocide talk. There's none of that going on here.

You just did above.

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[WestCoastRunner]

[quote name="Smallc" post="1062007" timestamp=

Helping them to help themselves would involve making them normal citizens with all the rights and privileges thereto.

That is only your opinion and means squat to them

They have nothing to do because their leaders are failing them. Let's help them to hold their leaders accountable.

[Smallc]

You just did above.

Only in your world would an attempt to make people equal under the law be seen as genocide.

[Smallc]

That is only your opinion and means squat to them

And what makes yours or anyone else's anymore meaningful? I actually live with aboriginals. I do business with them and have direct involvement with chief and council every single day. I'm marrying one. I may have some clue as to what I'm talking about.

They have nothing to do because their leaders are failing them. Let's help them to hold their leaders accountable.

No, they have nothing to do, because even when their leaders do good, we end up with places like the one I live next to - a successful reserve with several successful businesses where 40 people work for the reserve, 20 people work for the school, 10 for the daycare, 20 work at CFS because most of the kids are involved with CFS in some way, about 20 people work for the businesses that the reserve owns (in this case, a store and a construction company), about 20 commercial fish during the winter, and the rest of the 400 live on welfare.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Smallc

[WestCoastRunner]

Only in your world would an attempt to make people equal under the law be seen as genocide.

They want to retain their cultural identity. They can't do that if they are forced to assimilate. Why are you so afraid of helping them to achieve this? I agree it will be a long and arduous journey for them but who are you to stop them?

[Smallc]

They want to retain their cultural identity. They can't do that if they are forced to assimilate.

Do other groups in the Canadian cultural mosaic need to be hived off in reserves to keep their identity? Reserves are great incubators of aboriginal culture....if substance abuse and gambling addiction is a culture.

Why are you so afraid of helping them to achieve this? I agree it will be a long and arduous journey for them but who are you to stop them?

The only people trying to stop aboriginals from anything are the people that want them to keep lining my pockets.

[WestCoastRunner]

And what makes yours or anyone else's anymore meaningful? I actually live with aboriginals. I do business with them and have direct involvement with chief and council every single day. I'm marrying one. I may have some clue as to what I'm talking about.

Do they want to assimilate into white society?

And have they indicated to you that they want to give up their cultural identity? Please inform us because you should know being engaged to a FN woman.

Edited June 11, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

[Hal 9000]

And what makes yours or anyone else's anymore meaningful? I actually live with aboriginals. I do business with them and have direct involvement with chief and council every single day. I'm marrying one. I may have some clue as to what I'm talking about.

Do they want to assimilate into white society?

And have they indicated to you that they want to give up their cultural identity? Please inform us because you should know being engaged to a FN woman.

Usually, you and I disagree on social issues - but that is just differing perspectives. In this case, you couldn't be more wrong, embarrassingly naive even.

[Smallc]

Do they want to assimilate into white society?

Most aboriginal people live off reserve (where my fiancee comes from - though in my own province and Saskatchewan slightly more live on reserve than off), so what does that tell you?

And have they indicated to you that they want to give up their cultural identity? Please inform us because you should know being engaged to a FN woman.

I would bet you a great deal of money that aboriginal culture is more celebrated and maintained in Canada's urban centres than on any remote reserve where people pop pills for fun (though they do enough of that in cities too [not only aboriginals]).

[WestCoastRunner]

Do other groups in the Canadian cultural mosaic need to be hived off in reserves to keep their identity? Reserves are great incubators of aboriginal culture....if substance abuse and gambling addiction is a culture.

Other cultures immigrated to Canada. FN were here first! You think that resolving substance abusers and gambling addiction means assimilating them? Don't you think that giving them a reason to be proud of their culture would work better? And that of course means holding FN leaders accountable. But you seem to have a problem with empowering them. You have a very narrow vision. But that can be explained because of your age. I get that.

[Hal 9000]

Most aboriginal people live off reserve (where my fiancee comes from - though in my own province and Saskatchewan slightly more live on reserve than off), so what does that tell you?

I would bet you a great deal of money that aboriginal culture is more celebrated and maintained in Canada's urban centres than on any remote reserve where people pop pills for fun (though they do enough of that in cities too [not only aboriginals]).

That's actually a really good point. You don't see any FN culture in the remote reserves, you only see it in bigger communities.

[WestCoastRunner]

Usually, you and I disagree on social issues - but that is just differing perspectives. In this case, you couldn't be more wrong, embarrassingly naive even.

Why is it naive? Please provide more substance to your statement.

[WestCoastRunner]

That's actually a really good point. You don't see any FN culture in the remote reserves, you only see it in bigger communities.

Why is that a good point?

[Smallc]

Other cultures immigrated to Canada.

All cultures did actually. Is that supposed to matter?

FN were here first!

I was born here. So what?

You think that resolving substance abusers and gambling addiction means assimilating them?

No, do you? If so, why are you asking?

Don't you think that giving them a reason to be proud of their culture would work better?

Maybe. I think a purpose is more important.

And that of course means holding FN leaders accountable. But you seem to have a problem with empowering them. You have a very narrow vision. But that can be explained because of your age. I get that.

You have no idea what you're talking about. That can be explained by your general ignorance on the subject.

[Smallc]

Why is that a good point?

Because it makes sense? Because more aboriginal people live in cities and because in most cases they tend to do better there? Because cultural celebrations require the kind of money that most people on welfare can't cough up? Take your pick.

[Hal 9000]

Do other groups in the Canadian cultural mosaic need to be hived off in reserves to keep their identity? Reserves are great incubators of aboriginal culture....if substance abuse and gambling addiction is a culture.

Other cultures immigrated to Canada. FN were here first! You think that resolving substance abusers and gambling addiction means assimilating them? Don't you think that giving them a reason to be proud of their culture would work better? And that of course means holding FN leaders accountable. But you seem to have a problem with empowering them. You have a very narrow vision. But that can be explained because of your age. I get that.

They don't want white men interfering, they want the money and in turn say they'll take care of whatever issue. We can't hold them accountable, once we do, we have people like you and Jacee calling us racists.

I remember a story a couple years back (no cite) about a reserve that refused to let the white man build a clean water resevoir on their reserve, we gave them $6mill to handle the problem themselves. A year later the TV cameras went back to the reserve and found one FN dude pouring bleach into the water reserves, nothing fixed and no money left or accounted for. Oh yeah, the creek was filled with empty bleach bottles.

[jacee]

Only in your world would an attempt to make people equal under the law be seen as genocide.

Destroying their legal existence as peoples without their consent is genocide.

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Edited June 12, 2015 by jacee

[Smallc]

Destroying the it legal existence as peoples without their consent is genocide.

You're making that up. Also, no one is trying to destroy the existence of aboriginal people. Equalization is all that's ever sought.

[Hal 9000]

Destroying the it legal existence as peoples without their consent is genocide.

.

What's happening right now is closer to genocide. You're obviously an idealist, but i don't think you've been to a reserve before - or seen the effects of what that environment does to children generation after generation.

[jacee]

You're making that up. Also, no one is trying to destroy the existence of aboriginal people. Equalization is all that's ever sought.

You would like to destroy their legal existence as distinct peoples.

It isn't going to happen.

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[Smallc]

You would like to destroy their legal existence as distinct peoples.

I would like to remove it. Destroy is a pretty loaded word.

[jacee]

I would like to remove it. Destroy is a pretty loaded word.

Without their consent ... is destroying it.

But you can't.