Baltimore Riots

[kimmy]

Most people have either never had an experience with the police, and for those that have, not one that resulted in violence........

Most people also understand that the idea of police misconduct being investigated by their buddies is a failing proposition and that this "expectation that those involved will be punished when found guilty of committing crimes" is rather hollow.

As to the "Blue Code", how is that different from any other collective organization of people? Are political parties, bankers/investors, farmers, public/private sector unions, the military, healthcare, organized crime, business both big and small etc any different, in that once faced with outside intervention or interaction, those of the like mind will circle the wagons to protect their own interests.......

You're not seriously suggesting that police should be held to the same standards as politicians, bankers, farmers, and organized crime, are you?

First off, unlike the rest of those people, the police have direct power over other peoples' liberty and life.

And secondly, when the rest of those people screw up, they get investigated by an outside agency. That's not normally the case with police.

It very well could have, but is successful criminal prosecution of a police officer a result of a riot?

We won't know whether it's successful or not, but at least there are criminal charges this time, which is a great start.

Is that a fact? How many young black males are killed a year by police versus other young black males? Do you honestly think for one minute if policing, even bad policing, was pulled from such communities for just one week, that there would still be a community left standing?

That wasn't the choice you suggested. You weren't suggesting a choice between no cops and riots, you suggested a choice between tolerating police misconduct and riots.

Nobody is suggesting getting rid of the police. We're just suggesting they be held accountable when they break the law.

Does the fear of public shaming prevent other crimes? Is so, it would seem, by simply posting a criminal's picture in the media we could reduce the instances of theft, rape, murder etc......

The suggestion was not that public shaming replace our system of criminal justice. The suggestion is that after this firestorm, these cops must now realize that there will be serious repercussions, and that their buddies at the precinct won't be able to shield them from the consequences of their actions.

Again, where did MLK advocate violence and criminal behavior? Riots don't result in legislation gained from pressure by the silent majority.......

I never said he did. But after America saw those pictures, LBJ got a the Voting Rights Act pushed through congress in less than a week. The silent majority saw those pictures and said "this has to stop", but the first step was getting the silent majority to actually pay attention. Without those horrific pictures, the silent majority wouldn't have paid attention, and the Voting Rights Act would have happened at some later date.

The riots brought national and international attention to this situation.

As to your question, I have no idea, but I do know a riot is not the prerequisite for involvement in any investigation by County/State/Federal investigators......I would suggest that the vast majority of said investigations are started devoid of people trashing their own community.

A riot isn't a prerequisite, but it seems to be a strong motivator. I would suggest that devoid of the riots, business as usual continues for the Baltimore PD, which is pretty pathetic.

-k

[kimmy]

And what's with this wild eyed revolution talk? So there's trouble in paradise, and the first thing to some people's mind is kill whitey? We've got some pretty extremist types on this board after all.

Third world problems: decades of civil war taking a nation back to dirt huts, with pregnant mothers being slashed open, children tortured and raped repeatedly in front of their parents(I could go on for pages with this depravity but I think you get the point), and the government won't stop it because there's no government. First world problems: a few times a year out of hundreds of thousands of cop interaction, a black citizen in the US gets killed.

Yeah, we need to overthrow the government.

U.S. law enforcement shoots and kills about 400 Americans each year.....even white people. American citizens kill far more of each other.

No U.S. revolution is coming...except in the wild imaginations of some Canadians who watch too much American television.

There's nothing revolutionary about the idea that the government and its agents are accountable to the people. That's a founding principle of the United States.

-k

[Black Dog]

And what's with this wild eyed revolution talk? So there's trouble in paradise, and the first thing to some people's mind is kill whitey? We've got some pretty extremist types on this board after all.

Third world problems: decades of civil war taking a nation back to dirt huts, with pregnant mothers being slashed open, children tortured and raped repeatedly in front of their parents(I could go on for pages with this depravity but I think you get the point), and the government won't stop it because there's no government. First world problems: a few times a year out of hundreds of thousands of cop interaction, a black citizen in the US gets killed.

Yeah, we need to overthrow the government.

Nice false analogy.

Cops killing citizens is simply the most extreme manifestation of a problem which you clearly know jack all about.

[bush_cheney2004]

There's nothing revolutionary about the idea that the government and its agents are accountable to the people. That's a founding principle of the United States.

In theory, yes, but not always in practice. Many of "the people" use government and its agents to their own advantage at all levels.

The U.S. has thrived and survived concurrent with civil unrest....the revolution will not be televised because it does not exist.

[Shady]

There's nothing revolutionary about the idea that the government and its agents are accountable to the people. That's a founding principle of the United States.

-k

Nope. The founding principle is liberty.

[Black Dog]

Nope. The founding principle is liberty.

Hmmm.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

[eyeball]

Liberty from what?

[Shady]

Hmmm.

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

[Black Dog]

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

Without the rest, this is meaningless.

[cybercoma]

And what's with this wild eyed revolution talk? So there's trouble in paradise, and the first thing to some people's mind is kill whitey?

Kill whitey? Is that what you take away from this? The message is black lives matter, not kill white.

[bush_cheney2004]

No, the message is all lives matter....even the cops. The cops kill more "whites" than "blacks". Race riot talk is so much fun !

[sharkman]

U.S. law enforcement shoots and kills about 400 Americans each year.....even white people. American citizens kill far more of each other.

No U.S. revolution is coming...except in the wild imaginations of some Canadians who watch too much American television.

Don't confuse them with the facts, BC. Hunreds of white deaths at the hands of cops occur each year, but so what? It doesn't fit the narrative and the media doesn't cover it. Try to get with the program.

[Shady]

Without the rest, this is meaningless.

There's a reason why liberty comes after life, and pursuit of happiness comes after liberty.

[eyeball]

Don't confuse them with the facts, BC. Hunreds of white deaths at the hands of cops occur each year, but so what? It doesn't fit the narrative and the media doesn't cover it. Try to get with the program.

You mean the Cops Gone Wild program? I'm pretty sure BC's narrative is that we need more of them.

And while it doesn't seem to matter how many times it's repeated it always bears repeating...black American parents are not the only one's having the cop talk with their kids.

[eyeball]

There's a reason why liberty comes after life, and pursuit of happiness comes after liberty.

Yes but there's an even more fundamental reason why liberty from something proceeds the liberated pursuing anything. Edited May 7, 2015 by eyeball

[Derek 2.0]

Most people also understand that the idea of police misconduct being investigated by their buddies is a failing proposition and that this "expectation that those involved will be punished when found guilty of committing crimes" is rather hollow.

Do most understand that though? One would think if this was an actual problem, "most people" would have exacted political pressure to change this.

You're not seriously suggesting that police should be held to the same standards as politicians, bankers, farmers, and organized crime, are you?

First off, unlike the rest of those people, the police have direct power over other peoples' liberty and life.

And secondly, when the rest of those people screw up, they get investigated by an outside agency. That's not normally the case with police.

Who investigates politicians again? Politicians have far more "direct power" over other peoples' liberty and life......the police are after all, just the long arm of the State.....not the head.

We won't know whether it's successful or not, but at least there are criminal charges this time, which is a great start.

So since charges were laid, you consider the riot a success? What of the thousands of police officers charged and convicted annually in the United States that don't require a riot prior?

That wasn't the choice you suggested. You weren't suggesting a choice between no cops and riots, you suggested a choice between tolerating police misconduct and riots.

Nobody is suggesting getting rid of the police. We're just suggesting they be held accountable when they break the law.

Are they not being held accountable? Per the Cato Institute, police guilty of misconduct are charged and convicted every year.....

The suggestion was not that public shaming replace our system of criminal justice. The suggestion is that after this firestorm, these cops must now realize that there will be serious repercussions, and that their buddies at the precinct won't be able to shield them from the consequences of their actions.

Serious repercussions to prevent misconduct? Clearly the Death Penalty doesn't prevent all murders.......so no, I don't think the small percent of police that break the law presently, or future police officers that will continue to do so, will put much thought to "serious repercussions".......

I never said he did. But after America saw those pictures, LBJ got a the Voting Rights Act pushed through congress in less than a week. The silent majority saw those pictures and said "this has to stop", but the first step was getting the silent majority to actually pay attention. Without those horrific pictures, the silent majority wouldn't have paid attention, and the Voting Rights Act would have happened at some later date.

The riots brought national and international attention to this situation.

You're not making the distinction.....the peaceful Civil Rights marchers attacked by Bull Connor's goons were seen as victims by the silent majority.......punks robbing liquor stores.....not so much.

A riot isn't a prerequisite, but it seems to be a strong motivator. I would suggest that devoid of the riots, business as usual continues for the Baltimore PD, which is pretty pathetic.

-k

Yet of the thousands of annual convictions of police officers guilty of misconduct within the United States, very few required a riot, nor media attention......

[Big Guy]

Two officers, one white, one black are murdered during a regular traffic stop in Mississippi. All three suspects are black Still waiting for an outrage from the white community.

[kimmy]

Two officers, one white, one black are murdered during a regular traffic stop in Mississippi. All three suspects are black Still waiting for an outrage from the white community.

You think there's any need for the white community, or the black community, or the cop community, to fear that this crime is going to be swept under the rug or not taken seriously by authorities?

-k

[Derek 2.0]

Two officers, one white, one black are murdered during a regular traffic stop in Mississippi. All three suspects are black Still waiting for an outrage from the white community.

There's isn't much loot worthy in the Trailerhoods of Mississippi...........

[kimmy]

Do most understand that though? One would think if this was an actual problem, "most people" would have exacted political pressure to change this.

Who investigates politicians again? Politicians have far more "direct power" over other peoples' liberty and life......the police are after all, just the long arm of the State.....not the head.

Who investigates the politicians? Auditors, committees, special prosecutors, the RCMP... even when politicians are investigated by other politicians, it's usually at the hands of politicians who want their head on a platter. You don't think Jean Cretien was trying to do Brian Mulroney any favors with that Airbus thing, do you? You don't think the House Republicans are trying to help Hilary out with that Benghazi inquest, right?

As for the premise that politicians have far more "direct power" over other peoples' liberty and life, no. That's false. Politicians have more indirect power. Politicians could make decisions that eventually cost someone their lives, or get someone arrested.

If you're shackled in the back of a police van, the officer who has custody over you has direct power over you. He has power over you in a way that no politician ever could.

So since charges were laid, you consider the riot a success? What of the thousands of police officers charged and convicted annually in the United States that don't require a riot prior?

Are they not being held accountable? Per the Cato Institute, police guilty of misconduct are charged and convicted every year.....

That's an interesting report. Did you read the whole thing? Did you get to the part where they concluded that:

"Per a recent analysis we published this year using data gathered by the NPMSRP from April of 2009 through December of 2010 we determined that prosecuting police misconduct in the US is very problematic with conviction rates, incarceration rates, and the amount of time law enforcement officers spend behind bars for criminal misconduct are all far lower than what happens when ordinary citizens face criminal charges."

Serious repercussions to prevent misconduct? Clearly the Death Penalty doesn't prevent all murders.......so no, I don't think the small percent of police that break the law presently, or future police officers that will continue to do so, will put much thought to "serious repercussions".......

"Consequences" only happen if you get held accountable. And this has to change the officers' perception of their chances of getting held accountable.

If you read the numerous articles that have come out about the "nickel rides" that have come out since the riots, you'll find that the "nickel rides" have been used because they're a "no touch" way for cops to rough up suspects. "I had to swerve to avoid another vehicle." "I had to slam on the brakes when a dog ran onto the road." As I mentioned before, Baltimore has settled their "nickel ride" lawsuits without admission of guilt. Prior to this Baltimore nickel rides have resulted in two dead, two paralyzed, numerous less severe injuries, millions of dollars of settlements, and no criminal charges in Baltimore.

"I had to slam on the brakes because of a dog" isn't going to fly anymore.

And one would think that in wake of this incident, cameras will be installed in the vans, both in Baltimore and probably elsewhere as well. So this might mean the end of the "nickel ride".

You're not making the distinction.....the peaceful Civil Rights marchers attacked by Bull Connor's goons were seen as victims by the silent majority.......punks robbing liquor stores.....not so much.

The sympathy of the silent majority isn't what was required in Baltimore. Investigation by outside authorities is what was required. Scrutiny. Attention.

It doesn't matter that the punks robbing liquor stores aren't seen as victims. It matters that Freddie Gray's death is not swept under the rug.

-k

[kimmy]

Nope. The founding principle is liberty.

That might be the slogan on the cover of the brochures, but if you actually read what's in the US constitution you find a great deal of it deals with holding the government accountable. That includes everything from elections to limits on how the police and military may conduct themselves. If you'll recall, the whole fracas with Britain started over complaints about taxation without representation.

It would be really silly for someone to disagree that accountability of government to the people is a founding principle of the United States.

-k

[Shady]

That might be the slogan on the cover of the brochures, but if you actually read what's in the US constitution you find a great deal of it deals with holding the government accountable. That includes everything from elections to limits on how the police and military may conduct themselves. If you'll recall, the whole fracas with Britain started over complaints about taxation without representation.

It would be really silly for someone to disagree that accountability of government to the people is a founding principle of the United States.

-k

Nope, it's not a slogan. Accountability doesn't mean anything without freedom and liberty. One could have a very restrictive government that's "accountable."

Perhaps you're unaware of some of the great thinkers that influenced the founders of America.

[Shady]

Montesquieu for instance.

[Derek 2.0]

Who investigates the politicians? Auditors, committees, special prosecutors, the RCMP... even when politicians are investigated by other politicians, it's usually at the hands of politicians who want their head on a platter. You don't think Jean Cretien was trying to do Brian Mulroney any favors with that Airbus thing, do you? You don't think the House Republicans are trying to help Hilary out with that Benghazi inquest, right?

Who appoints the auditors, committees, special prosecutors and the head of the RCMP?

As for the premise that politicians have far more "direct power" over other peoples' liberty and life, no. That's false. Politicians have more indirect power. Politicians could make decisions that eventually cost someone their lives, or get someone arrested.

If you're shackled in the back of a police van, the officer who has custody over you has direct power over you. He has power over you in a way that no politician ever could.

No, its not false........using the example of the OP, who sent in special investigators.......police or the politicians? Likewise, to whom to these black communities pleas fall upon deaf ears to? You suggested these riots are required to bring forth change.......who do you expect, or hope, will bring forth your desired change? Police of Politicians?

The police are just instruments of the State......

That's an interesting report. Did you read the whole thing? Did you get to the part where they concluded that:

Sure.....didn't find the part that suggested riots were a prerequisite for a conviction though....

The sympathy of the silent majority isn't what was required in Baltimore. Investigation by outside authorities is what was required. Scrutiny. Attention.

Clearly having the State attorney's husband, a councilman representing the community that felt the riots, helped.......

I trust if the charges are dismissed against these officers, or if it goes to trial and the officers are found not guilty by a jury of their peers, you'll accept that justice was down?

Or does that mean they just need to riot some more?

[kimmy]

Nope, it's not a slogan. Accountability doesn't mean anything without freedom and liberty. One could have a very restrictive government that's "accountable."

Perhaps you're unaware of some of the great thinkers that influenced the founders of America.

Obviously accountability doesn't mean anything if you're dead. That does not dispute the fact that accountability was a founding principle of the United States. Given the contents of the constitution and the causes of the War of Independence, you'd have to be mental to argue otherwise.

-k