guyser Posted March 12, 2015 Report Posted March 12, 2015 This isn't about the smell of your breath, but your breath really smells.Oh is that how he meant it? Well then....he should carry on with his non-race silliness. Good one.
Bob Macadoo Posted March 12, 2015 Report Posted March 12, 2015 Because he said it was not about race before he said it......what could be clearer? Did you forget a "rolleyes" emoticon with this statement?
Michael Hardner Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 You have to ask the question - who really is churning anti-Muslim sentiment? Various extremist Islamists have killed 10's of thousands of Muslims over the past decade or two. The vast majority of Muslims - who are modernized, integrated and peaceful also dream of the day that these thugs are erased from the earth. Canada has rightly identified these jihadists for what they are - murderers who have perverted Islam. It is the critics of the government who have used the "Islamaphobia" gambit and accused the government of intolerence. Fear-mongering by the critics. Canadians aren't afraid - they just want someone to stand up and call a spade a spade - and take some action that will give us the tools we need over coming decade or two. The point is missed 100%. Can you not discuss the issue at a meta-level, at a political level ? I don't care if it's right or wrong, it's the politics I'm trying to figure out. How can both parties think they will win on this one ? Somebody has to be wrong. Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
cybercoma Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 The CPC stance is strictly one of banning a face covering during a citizenship ceremony, nothing else....Hey, maybe next they could ban women from wearing face coverings when they sign other kinds of legal documents like say....oh...marriage contracts. No more veils at weddings. It's a barbaric cultural practice that subjugates women. There should be a law against it.
Shady Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 Hey, maybe next they could ban women from wearing face coverings when they sign other kinds of legal documents like say....oh...marriage contracts. No more veils at weddings. It's a barbaric cultural practice that subjugates women. There should be a law against it. You're not being intellectually honest if you're comparing a veil at a wedding to the full face covering, You're just being juvenile, and completely out of the mainstream of Canadian opinion of this topic. Enough of the hyperbole.
cybercoma Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 You're not being intellectually honest if you're comparing a veil at a wedding to the full face covering, You're just being juvenile, and completely out of the mainstream of Canadian opinion of this topic. Enough of the hyperbole.Oh? A veil is not a face covering? A wedding doesn't require the signing of a legal document and the recitation of oaths? Riiight. So far removed. Such hyperbole.
Shady Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 Oh? A veil is not a face covering? A wedding doesn't require the signing of a legal document and the recitation of oaths? Riiight. So far removed. Such hyperbole. No, a veil is not a full face covering like the one in question. And no, documents aren't signed at a wedding. And no, there is no recitation of oaths. Vows, usually written up by the individuals involved in the ceremony. Come'on man, step back into reality. Enough of the hyperbole. Stop defending anti-woman practices. It's unbecoming.
Smallc Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 No, a veil is not a full face covering like the one in question. And no, documents aren't signed at a wedding. And no, there is no recitation of oaths. Vows, usually written up by the individuals involved in the ceremony. And are generally said with the face uncovered.
Michael Hardner Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 The thread is drifting towards the content of the issue, versus the pure politics. I'm still looking for an answer: how can both parties see this same issue as a win ? Usually, one party will pick their strength, say the economy, and the other party will hammer on their weakness - say human rights... Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Keepitsimple Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) The point is missed 100%. Can you not discuss the issue at a meta-level, at a political level ? I don't care if it's right or wrong, it's the politics I'm trying to figure out. How can both parties think they will win on this one ? Somebody has to be wrong. OK - but that's pretty simple - except for how you decide what "right" and "wrong" are. Politics is about getting people to vote for you and there's no better vote-getter than an issue that has a very basic connection to what people feel in their gut. Putting technicalities aside, the vast majority of Canadians feel in their gut that wearing a Niqab is at best, very strange and thusly, are completely onside with the government position. Again - forget about right or wrong - it's how people feel in their gut. As for terrorism and terrorists - same thing....the vast majority of Canadians feel that "something" should be done - they know intuitively as they watch events unfold around the world.....and again, it's a very basic "in the gut" feel. And again, forget about all the excuses, technicalities and nuances - that's just the way it is. So moving on to the politics....the opposition is caught between a rock and a hard place. Their job is to oppose - but how do you oppose something that the vast majority of Canadians agree with? Well, you try to attack around the edges - not the actual intent of the legislation. That's why the Liberals (God bless 'em) will support the legislation, while condemning it.....and the NDP oppose it - and are pretty quiet about that position. In Pollyanna land, all parties should support the legislation and work together to take off the rough edges.....but hey, it's politics and you can bet that if the Liberals were in power, they would be leveraging the situation to their advantage - probably to an even greater degree if history tells us anything. So - how can both parties (you mean three I guess) see it as a win? All parties HAVE to see it as a win- they can't just give the issue to the Tories.....but we'll only find out on election day how much of a "win" it will be...... Edited March 13, 2015 by Keepitsimple Back to Basics
Michael Hardner Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 So - how can both parties (you mean three I guess) see it as a win? All parties HAVE to see it as a win- they can't just give the issue to the Tories.....but we'll only find out on election day how much of a "win" it will be...... Ok, so it's too big an issue to ignore, so the Liberals will support it and oppose it and hope that Canadians embrace the fuzziness ? Maybe my inability to understand explains why I'm trending towards spoiled ballot/fringe candidates... Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Shady Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 And are generally said with the face uncovered. And that means?
Keepitsimple Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 Ok, so it's too big an issue to ignore, so the Liberals will support it and oppose it and hope that Canadians embrace the fuzziness ? Maybe my inability to understand explains why I'm trending towards spoiled ballot/fringe candidates... Exactly - Liberals trying to fool Canadians.....nothing new there. Back to Basics
Black Dog Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 OK - but that's pretty simple - except for how you decide what "right" and "wrong" are. Politics is about getting people to vote for you and there's no better vote-getter than an issue that has a very basic connection to what people feel in their gut. Putting technicalities aside, the vast majority of Canadians feel in their gut that wearing a Niqab is at best, very strange and thusly, are completely onside with the government position. Again - forget about right or wrong - it's how people feel in their gut. As for terrorism and terrorists - same thing....the vast majority of Canadians feel that "something" should be done - they know intuitively as they watch events unfold around the world.....and again, it's a very basic "in the gut" feel. And again, forget about all the excuses, technicalities and nuances - that's just the way it is. Perfect encapsulation of everything that's wrong with politics in this country.
Smallc Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) And that means? Generally, during the ceremony, the veil is pulled up. You say your vows with your face uncovered (it's the standard practice, though it can be broken). His point wasn't really a point at all. Edited March 13, 2015 by Smallc
Shady Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 Generally, during the ceremony, the veil is pulled up. You say your vows with your face uncovered (it's the standard practice, though it can be broken). His point wasn't really a point at all. Good point, I haden't thought about that. Even better.
guyser Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) Good point, I haden't thought about that. Even better.Minor point? It isnt a general rule. PLenty of women take and say the vows with the veil down. Sometimes the dad lifts her veil when he escorts her to the alter. Sometimes the now husband lifts it when he goes for the first kiss after the vows are said. Oh my god, the horror , some women are being married with a veil on? Surely this isnt the country I know and love and grew up in. There must be some sinister plot afoot to subjegate women. And considering the numbers who may do this , I demand our esteemed PM Steve Harper to table a bill against this monstrosity ! Edited March 13, 2015 by Guyser2
Shady Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 Minor point? It isnt a general rule. PLenty of women take and say the vows with the veil down. Sometimes the dad lifts her veil when he escorts her to the alter. Sometimes the now husband lifts it when he goes for the first kiss after the vows are said. Oh my god, the horror , some women are being m,arried to men with a veil on? Surely this isnt the country I know and love and grew up in. There must be some sinister plot afoot to subjagate women. And considering the numbers who may do this , I demand our esteemed PM Steve Harper to table a bill against this monstrosity ! Regardless the comparison isn't apt. Comparing a pure religious ceremony to taking an oath of citizenship is completely different. Let's all try and use some logic and reason please.
BubberMiley Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 It's reassuring this government is spending its time worrying about ceremonial etiquette. That is clearly one of the most pressing concerns we face as a country. "I think it's fun watching the waldick get all excited/knickers in a knot over something." -scribblet
guyser Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 Regardless the comparison isn't apt. Comparing a pure religious ceremony to taking an oath of citizenship is completely different. Let's all try and use some logic and reason please.LOL shady. Do you ever stop to see how foolish you look? 5minutes earlier it was Good point, I haden't thought about that. Even better.Now it isnt apt. Too funny.
LemonPureLeaf Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 So a sheer wedding veil that is worn for two minutes is now identical to a solid black veil with only eyes showing that us worn at all times, even when driving. I would bet that the vast majority of Canadians would disagree with you.
Shady Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 LOL shady. Do you ever stop to see how foolish you look? 5minutes earlier it wasNow it isnt apt. Too funny. What in the world are you talking about? I said that the example wasn't apt, and then Smallc reinforced it, pointing out an even bigger problem with the comparison.
Shady Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 It's reassuring this government is spending its time worrying about ceremonial etiquette. That is clearly one of the most pressing concerns we face as a country. No, the oath of citizenship isn't ceremonial. Either is the oath in court when you're asked to tell the truth. However, a religious marriage is very much ceremonial. Why is this so difficult for some of you to understand? It's not rocket science.
eyeball Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 No it's definitely not science we're talking about here. We're talking about real magic words - that protect the nation's vital bodily fluids...or some such thing. A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
overthere Posted March 13, 2015 Report Posted March 13, 2015 Wedding: private and often religious ceremony. Citizenship oath: public and generally secular ceremony. It doesn't matter though, there is no reason to deny a previously identified person wearing a veil at the public ceremony. Science too hard for you? Try religion!
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