Interfaith Comity Between Jews & Blacks - Is It Mutual?

[jbg]

Last night, I attended Shabbat services as my synagogue. The occasion was the annual interfaith service involving a black church from a nearby city and the Jewish synagogue to which I belong.

The service itself was a great show if unity between the groups. Blacks and whites were swaying, arm in arm, to the same music. A good time was had by all. I was troubled, however.

This is why I was troubled. The synagogue to which I belong has numerous committees whose purpose is to promote social justice, and interracial and Interstate solidarity. Jews have been in the forefront of the civil rights struggle, and in general the struggle for political and economic quality. For example, the "I Had A Dream" speech was co-written by Barry Levenson. Prominent rabbis and Jewish leaders were prominent in the March on Washington and other major Martin Luther King events. The problem is that the black people cover by and large, do not support the Jews in their various causes. This includes but is not limited to the state of Israel.

The Jews could badly use some support in this area. We are less than 2% of the population. If we had more support from the minority community, both progressive presidents, such as our current president, and conservative presidents would be under pressure to support Israel. As it is, is real support in the United States is gravely endangered.

In other words,the support of each others causes should be mutual. We should, at the committee level, be pressing for reciprocal support.

[Big Guy]

Perhaps the blacks problem is with Israeli policies and not the Jews. Is that their problem because they separate the two or is it your problem because you cannot separate the two?

Congratulations on participating in interfaith services. It is never a waste of time to get a better understanding of other faiths.

[jbg]

Perhaps the blacks problem is with Israeli policies and not the Jews. Is that their problem because they separate the two or is it your problem because you cannot separate the two?

They are really not separable. And we support black causes despite a divergence of financial interests, because it is right.

Congratulations on participating in interfaith services. It is never a waste of time to get a better understanding of other faiths.

Agreed. But it's a two-way street. Or should be.

[jacee]

They are really not separable. And we support black causes despite a divergence of financial interests, because it is right.

Agreed. But it's a two-way street. Or should be.

They are very separable. Jews make the separation:

8-fascinating-trends-in-how-american-jews-think-about-israel/

.

Edited January 18, 2015 by jacee

[The_Squid]

So American blacks should support Israeli politics? And this would be support for Jews in America? Do you support blacks in Africa?

I don't get it....

[jbg]

So American blacks should support Israeli politics? And this would be support for Jews in America? Do you support blacks in Africa?

I don't get it....

In fact there is lots of Jewish involvement in the Dharfur atrocities. There was in opposing apartheid. Exactly my point.

[BubberMiley]

People support what they believe in because they believe it's right. They don't do it in exchange for support for some other unrelated issue, unless they didn't believe in it in the first place.

[Moonlight Graham]

They are really not separable.

For Pete's sake, do you actually believe this?? jbg, do you blindly support all of the Israeli government's policies just because they're Israeli Jews making the calls? There are good Israel policies and bad Israeli policies. For a a Jew/Israeli to think otherwise would make them the same as all the sheep German people who blindly supported all Nazi policies because it was in "interests" of then-opressed Germany.

Friend, it's very wonderful your two faiths and ethnicities are trying to work together in brotherhood/sisterhood. Maybe you should voice your concerns to them and not us? I would love to hear that your synagogue reaches out with other mosques as well. If you can't accept & listen to any criticisms of Israel you'll never get anywhere with anyone, even those who want peace (like myself).

Edited January 19, 2015 by Moonlight Graham

[Michael Hardner]

We are less than 2% of the population. If we had more support from the minority community,

Uh, do you see what you did just there ?

[kimmy]

The Jews could badly use some support in this area. We are less than 2% of the population. If we had more support from the minority community, both progressive presidents, such as our current president, and conservative presidents would be under pressure to support Israel. As it is, is real support in the United States is gravely endangered.

In other words,the support of each others causes should be mutual. We should, at the committee level, be pressing for reciprocal support.

Are you sure support for Israel in the US is in danger? It seems to me that "I support Israel's right to exist and defend itself" is right up there with "I support the troops" and "I respect Americans of all colors and creeds" on the list of stuff that every US politician has to say. Anything less than enthusiastic support for Israel is seen as cause for suspicion at the very least, and viewed as near treason in some quarters.

What more should the US be doing to support Israel? Short of putting US bulldozers on the ground in Israel, isn't the US already doing just about everything within reason to support Israel in monetary, political, military, economic terms? Is it because Obama didn't provide a ringing endorsement of the settlement policy? Is that why people have decided that the US no longer supports Israel?

The idea that Jews supported the civil rights movement 50 years ago and are owed payback seems ... well, occasionally there are politicians that remind black voters that Lincoln was a Republican, it seems about as relevant. I'm not sure it's apparent to people outside your synagogue that Jews today are particularly in solidarity with black people, the committee on social justice issues notwithstanding. It's nice that you have a committee for social justice, but if the purpose of the committee is so that you can tell people how committed to social justice you are, it seems a little self-serving.

Once upon a time there was a federal NDP candidate in Edmonton Strathcona named Malcolm Azania, who is black. His political career effectively ended when someone unearthed stuff he had written on usenet many years earlier, while still a university student. The gist of the comments that were so damning to his political career is that he was questioning how it is that Jews, who he believed are among the most privileged and well-off groups in our society, are at the front of the line when it comes to claiming minority victimhood. Wrapped up in the typical language about "white privilege", he basically questioned the idea that there's this group who are among the most white-privileged of white-privilege people who nonetheless come out with the "guys! we're victims of the system, just like you!" when it's convenient for them to do so. Now, I'm not saying he's right or wrong, but this thread seems like an example of what he was talking about.

-k

Edited January 18, 2015 by kimmy

[Michael Hardner]

when it comes to claiming minority victimhood.

"Minority" seems to be a word that jbg doesn't apply to the 2% who share his faith, so maybe it's a bad word here ?

[WIP]

The main reason why there was a split in that African-American/Jewish alliance in the U.S. is because Jews started being welcomed in as part of the club as America's emphasis on church affiliation started dying off in the 60's.

Once it didn't matter if you were Protestant or Catholic or Evangelical Christian, race started becoming the defining issue of who was/ and who was not a realllll American. Jews can pass for white....blacks obviously cannot!

According to one prominent Jewish Republican conservative (I forget the name) I heard on the radio one night back in the 80's, the greatest anomaly of voting patterns was that the Jews were tied at the time with Episcopalians for highest average income, while sharing voting patterns with the lowest income demographic - blacks. The reasons for this pattern was that..no matter how much money Jews earned or how much wealth they accrued, they were never welcomed into the private clubs of the privileged elites, nor had much influence in the political process outside of their local concentrations in New York.

But, the black/jewish alliance mostly fell along generational lines. The white marchers to Selma, and the white youths who joined the protests at the segregated lunchcounters in the South were mostly Jewish youths from New York....something that wasn't lost on the Ku Klux Klan! But, the Klan was already losing influence in the South (not that racism was disappearing) because a revision in fast-growing Evangelical Christianity was that these end-times fans of the book of Revelation did not follow the traditional "Replacement" teaching of covenant theology.....God had a covenant with the Jews, but it ended at Pentacost and everyone has to follow the new covenant of Jesus etc.. The new theology teaches that God can have separate covenants at the same time...so the Jews can still be under the covenant with Moses, while new Christians follow that new covenant. Add to this, that the emphasis on end times and 2nd Coming really took off with the founding of the modern state of Israel, and those two elements created the modern Christian Zionist movement in the U.S.; which is more powerful and broadly based than the American Jewish support. That's why Bibi goes out of his way to entertain the televangelist numbnuts that come over to visit the Holy Land.

So, all of these elements put together, meant that there was no more real discrimination or hostility from most white Americans anymore, and most Jews, except for the orthodox, were free to mix right in to the majority white population, including intermarriage etc.. And with their growing acceptance by white America, Jews have started seeing themselves as part of the white majority, and unless they are in a low income demographic, they don't feel much in come with black Americans anymore!

There certainly is a black middle class in America, that moved out of the suburbs, but as we see with Ferguson Missouri, in the eyes of law enforcement and the authority establishment, they take the ghetto with them if they are still visible minorities in a nation that is still sharply divided by race and still won't admit it!

So, in the end, I don't see much to bring blacks and jews together again in America! Most Jewish Americans are not all that enamored with Israel anymore....as some others here have already pointed out. Israel has more fanatical, unquestioning support for their actions from white America, who have almost no ability to apply critical analysis of any issue, let alone their expectations of prophecy fulfillment!

But, most black churches are less likely to fall in with the belief that modern Israel fulfills prophecy. Black Christianity takes their inspiration ever since slavery era, from stories like the Exodus from Egypt. There is still a strong emphasis on combating forces of oppression. So, when Israel turns into an oppressive force in the Middle East...able to turn Gaza into an oversized prison camp and divide up the West Bank with settlements, walls and roads, that make it impossible for any Palestinian to travel outside of their immediate area, Israel becomes seen as the oppressor, regardless of the excuses they want to make for how and why they got into this situation of being an armed encampment that's equivalent to the ancient Greek city of Sparta.

[bush_cheney2004]

...they take the ghetto with them if they are still visible minorities in a nation that is still sharply divided by race and still won't admit it!

This is funny, as the racist term "visible minority" is Canadian, not American. Back to "majority whites" expert analysis of "blacks".....

[Moonlight Graham]

Jews have been in the forefront of the civil rights struggle, and in general the struggle for political and economic quality. For example, the "I Had A Dream" speech was co-written by Barry Levenson. Prominent rabbis and Jewish leaders were prominent in the March on Washington and other major Martin Luther King events.

I never knew any of this, very interesting, The way your words come off to me (whether your intent or not), it kind of sounds like you're trying to give Jews some credit for the black civil rights struggle. As a suggestion, if you're ever mentioning any of this to a black person, you should completely avoid that, and only use those facts as evidence that Jews have a history of support black minority rights/causes and are in solidarity with them. Don't give any impression of you taking away any credit of black civil rights being led and achieved by the blacks themselves.

[eyeball]

I kinda got the impression he was giving Jews most of the credit, like they came up with the idea of civil rights and things...that said there was a certain ethnic hippy that used to wander around struggling for this sort of stuff a couple of thousand years ago. So maybe jbg's not entirely off base.

[jbg]

I never knew any of this, very interesting, The way your words come off to me (whether your intent or not), it kind of sounds like you're trying to give Jews some credit for the black civil rights struggle. As a suggestion, if you're ever mentioning any of this to a black person, you should completely avoid that, and only use those facts as evidence that Jews have a history of support black minority rights/causes and are in solidarity with them. Don't give any impression of you taking away any credit of black civil rights being led and achieved by the blacks themselves.

I kinda got the impression he was giving Jews most of the credit, like they came up with the idea of civil rights and things...that said there was a certain ethnic hippy that used to wander around struggling for this sort of stuff a couple of thousand years ago. So maybe jbg's not entirely off base.

It would be a re-write of history not to give Jews a significant amount of credit, though not a majority. Edited January 19, 2015 by Charles Anthony
fixed mal-formed quotes

[WIP]

This is funny, as the racist term "visible minority" is Canadian, not American. Back to "majority whites" expert analysis of "blacks".....

Yeah, we all know what the American term is...but I don't think we're allowed to use it here!

Fact is that in America, there was no such thing as a white race prior to the end of slavery! And, it took many decades before religious affiliation divisions began to ease. Back when the Klan first started up from the remnants of the old slave patrols, they were also against white Catholics moving into the South.

At first, the only immigration that was accepted into the so called Melting Pot was from northern Europe...especially the British Isles. When they started letting in large numbers of Italians, they were not quite regarded as white either. Interesting to note that, if we go back to the era of the Irish Immigration, anti-immigration cartoonists drew the Irish as relatively dark skinned, compared to 'real' Americans. But, over time, the Irish and the Italians were accepted into the white man's club, and joined in with the proclamations that America was a color-blind society where everyone was capable of achieving their goals if they had enough initiative.....and other fantasies!

[WIP]

I kinda got the impression he was giving Jews most of the credit, like they came up with the idea of civil rights and things...that said there was a certain ethnic hippy that used to wander around struggling for this sort of stuff a couple of thousand years ago. So maybe jbg's not entirely off base.

The problem to me, is that he is ignoring the fact that American Jews started shifting to the political right and the Republican Party once they were accepted into the club!

How many Jews are active in the civil rights movements in America today? Not likely that they have any more of a presence in campaigns like "Black Lives Matter" than the non-Jewish whites in attendance.

The other part missing in the story...that you have to go to alternative media for, is that many blacks find it at least a little offensive for white law students and organizers to come in to their communities and try to take charge of events. Especially on issues like the aggressive use of policing in black communities or the prison-industrial complex that has developed in recent decades, most of the black leaders I've noticed, say they appreciate having support from the larger white communities, but these are issues that they have to live with on a daily basis, and are not going to relegate to whites or even the usual upper class black leadership, whom the younger ones see as equally out of touch.

[Moonlight Graham]

It would be a re-write of history not to give Jews a significant amount of credit, though not a majority.

Even if true, just don't tell the African-Americans you chum with that. Let them have their victory,

Edited January 20, 2015 by Moonlight Graham

[jbg]

Even if true, just don't tell the African-Americans you chum with that. Let them have their victory,

It was a team effort. Let them stay on the team.

[Moonlight Graham]

It was a team effort. Let them stay on the team.

Well if you insist then I still suggest doing as I said earlier, which is to point out the Jewish connection in order to show that black and Jewish Americans have a history of working together and therefore can do so now between your two local churches/synagogues, instead of trying to claim credit or get recognition (unless you want them to get PO'd)

[jbg]

On a jarring note, I was at a U.N. function today to commemorate the Holocaust, or Shoah. The ceremony was on the floor of the General Assembly and it was beautiful. The jarring note was that there were almost no black and only a few Asian delegates present. This was not a "Zionist" event. It was an event to memorialize the slaughter of one-third of world Jewry. The sea of white faces shows a lack of concern by the other delegates. Aren't they supposed to be working, on the G.A. floor?

[The_Squid]

On a jarring note, I was at a U.N. function today to commemorate the Holocaust, or Shoah. The ceremony was on the floor of the General Assembly and it was beautiful. The jarring note was that there were almost no black and only a few Asian delegates present. This was not a "Zionist" event. It was an event to memorialize the slaughter of one-third of world Jewry. The sea of white faces shows a lack of concern by the other delegates. Aren't they supposed to be working, on the G.A. floor?

Did you attend an event to commemorate the loss of life at Hiroshima/Nagasaki? How many white faces do you think show up at those events....

[jbg]

Did you attend an event to commemorate the loss of life at Hiroshima/Nagasaki? How many white faces do you think show up at those events....

Is it a U.N. General Assembly event?

[Black Dog]

The problem is that the black people cover by and large, do not support the Jews in their various causes. This includes but is not limited to the state of Israel.

There are other causes for Jews than Israel? What other causes are lacking in the African American support you feel is owed.