French Magazine Attacked by Terrorists

[Derek 2.0]

There wasn't? Why do you think there wasn't? Genuine question, I didn't know there was no blood. I don't watch disturbing video, if I can avoid it.

I'm sure there was eventually blood, just not seen within the ~30 second video floating around on the internet.......Despite what is shown in movies and tv, there aren't great explosions of blood and guts........The slain officer was hit with a 7.62x39 full metal jacket round at very close range, and from the video, the ricocheting ball round can be seen hitting the pavement after going through the officer, which can be expected of FMJ rounds, unlike soft point hunting ammo or hollow points that will make a larger wound tract from such close range and in turn, more blood.

The only restriction of blood, is to the brains of those wearing tin-foil hats.........

[Guest]

Thanks for the info.

[marcus]

Disparaging a religion is not name calling. Neither you nor ISIS nor Al Qaeda can make me respect something whose basic ideals for social behaviour are directly contradictory to my own.

ISIS and Al Qaeda do not represent 1.6 billion people who call themselves Muslims. You continously make the mistake of using one brush stroke to paint people who follow a religion. Your ignorance and animosity towards this particular religion makes you a bigot.

[Rue]

Marcus all you have to do is read the constitutions of ISIS and Al Qaeda to know they repeatedly claim speak on behalf of and claim to represent all Muslims. Your denial of that is absurd given their constitutions and their claims.

As well criticiizing religions does not in itself make the critiques bigotted. The words and context in which the words are used will determine their discriminatory nature not simply the fact they engage in critical analysis.

What you are doing yet again is coming on this board to call someone a bigot, a personal attack, rather than debate the words of Argus you think discriminate and explain why you think they discriminate. You make the allegation with zero basis.

So in that sense you engage in the very exercise you claim to criticize him for and its precisely why I challenge you time and time again whether you engage in sweeping generalized statements and name calling about Israelis, Jews ,Zionists,Americans, etc.

Stop trying to deflect from the issues in discussion by engaging in personal attacks.

The point Argus has made and some do not like is the fact that a Muslim is not a terrorist does not mean that their values based on Islam will not clash with fundamental democratic or Western values and this is what we see now arising in France, Europe and in the Western world as manifested in these attacks.

As well e have become so used to outrageous extremist behaviour from certain Muslims that engage in violene and terror, we now are engaging in an exercise that says, as long as they don't engage in terror we should not criticize Muslims. Muslims can still have problematic beliefs that run contrary to democracy but not be violent.

Yes we can criticize Jews, Muslims, Christians, atheists, anyone, provided our arguments are worded in a way to make clear what we are criticizing and why and we are using the same standard of critique and that we are questioning specific beliefs.

Someone is not a bigot if they question whether Moses parted the sea. If they go the next step and say all Jews believe that, its ignorant anda false assumption stereotype. If they go the step after that and use it in context to justify hating, resenting or treating Jews in a negative way, then it becomes bigoted.

Criticizing concepts in the Koran does not make one a bigot, Saying to Muslims, look, its not enough to say you aint gonna blow someone up in a Western society, You are going to have to assimilate.

This notion you can remain segregated and opt out and stay under your own laws, swim in public pools but with no Muslims, cover your faces in public creating security issues, preaching to others they must convert to Islam, having more than one wife, telling your kids they can't play with Jewish or Christian kids, etc., its not going to work.

That is the way it is.

Muslims in France, total 5 million. They are not being accepted in society.Part of that reason is the exact same reason other minorities like Jews (10 million in Franc) or Africans (non Muslims) or Vietnamese, or other former French colonialist subjects who moved to France struggle.

Its not religion its class system. France is an old country where many jobs are passed through families and there is no open competition. Others are certainly based on small town connections. So it discriminates against certain white French from the wrong families and regions as well.

However there is no doubt, if you retain a Muslim name, dress and speak with an accent and come across with an attitude like you are owed, it reinforcs the negative stereotypes.

In that sense minorities in France like Muslims face the same problem they do in every country.

Its a vicious cycle. Some things minorities do are self defeating and play into the vicious stereotypes against us, other things are actions of resentment towards feeling unfairly left out.

All I know is what most of us know in Canada Muslim, Jew or whatever, because we are a nation made up of immigrants. Whether we were Scottish, Irish, French, Ukrainian, Jewish, Chinese, Indian, Hindus, Muslims, blacks leaving the US, Doukhabors, Italian, Portugese on and on it went, when we came to Canada there was no welcome. We did not get off the boat and expect immediate gratification and demand immediate rights.

There was no Charter of Rights telling us we were equal. There were no special programs that reversed discrimination in our favour during job interviews.

Our own ethnic communities looked after us, and we crowded crappy little tenaments until the next generations could move out into bigger homes.

We all faced bigotry and no one used it as an excuse to fire bomb or kill anyone although there were of course street fights and blow ups such as the Christie Pitts battle in Toronto.

No Jew or Irishmen or Ukraine or Italian went around fire bombing Toronto and we Jews did not embrace terrorism because signs on the beaches said no Jews allowed or McKenzie King called Jews vermin and sent us back to Nazi Germany to die.

Chinese and Indians did not fire bomb this country because we treated them as slave labour and put a head tax on them and so many died building our railroads. Italians,Japanese and Germans interned during WW2 did not run around the streets firebombing when they got out.

Hell even our aboriginal people. the so called first Canadians have not done what Muslim extremists have done and if anyone has had the justification to do it it would be them. When Louis Riel led his rebellion look at how it was conducted. People look back now atJohn A.MacDonald on his birthday and say, he was a drunk a genocidal maniac but no on firebombed Canada when he deliberately starved

Western aboriginals to get his railroad through.

That is the point. Aboriginals today are recognized in the Charter and continually win their legal rights arguments in court and that is testament to their not giving in to terrorism. They have slowly waited us and our slow legal system out until they could present their arguments which they have won much to the anger of some Canadians but those Canadians have not gone on fire bombings of reservations now have they?

The other point is many Muslims are not terrorists and good hard working people and most of us know that but they and we also know its still mainstream Muslim beliefs in the mosques that teach them non Muslims are infidel and they can not fully assimilate into the value system we non Muslims find basic to Canadian democracy and that is where the friction can be found as well.

We have to openly discuss any religion whose dogma or precepts is problematic to Canadian democracy.

A Canadian has the right to question me and say get out of Canada, if I do not put it first before Israel. My being Jewish does not allow me to opt out of loyalty to my country in the name of my God.

So now Marcus you take that name calling and personal attack and move on. It aint gonna work

Edited January 12, 2015 by Rue

[PIK]

Michael barbaric and backwards are not insults but perfect description of what The extremist are. and trudeau made a fool out of himself when harper called honour killings barbaric, and he made a big thing out of it. Now you are doing it. This is all about free speech ,but when people like you do not like a word and wont let people use them you are no different then the extremists and it sounds sound very childish also.Ease up.

[Rue]

Also to follow up on what Derek said, not all gun shots to the head or body cause an explosion of guts. The splatter pattern tells a lot but not all shots have splatter and can actually be very compact depending on the angle, where the bullet penetrates and whether the body falls down on top of the hole or wound obscuring it.

You can have a head totally in act and without much blood or markings on the top visible to the eye but with literally nothing but mush underneath.

A bullet can leave a tiny hole coming in and then exit leaving a bigger hole.

All depends on the angle, velocity, type of bullet, angle the body drops, whether the bullet exits the body or stays inside and hits a bone or is absorbed in a cavity, etc.

Head wounds are misleading. Some of the worst barely show a sign of entry or exit and some bloody reactions are actually superficial scalp wounds but the amount of blood makes them look worse.

When you shoot someone you often have no clue you have shot them and that is why there is more than one shot.

On the other hand if you use a shot gun close up the head explodes like a pumpkin. Shot gun shells are far different than bullets and plastic or hollow head bullets cause far different wounds than regular bullets not to mention the size and shape of a bullet dictates a lot as to the pattern it creates when it comes into contact.

People in the heat of the moment like the moving terrorists in Paris appear to have been trained to do that. It was not a random split second sudden movement. It was a directed on the move hit, a standard m.o. of many terrorist cells and for that matter bank robbers.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Rue

[Michael Hardner]

Michael barbaric and backwards are not insults but perfect description of what The extremist are.

He was talking about the entire religion. The distinction is important.

[bush_cheney2004]

He was talking about the entire religion. The distinction is important.

Why ? Such "insults" are routinely hurled at other religions, groups, nationalities, etc.

What is so special about Muslims in this context...extra "sensitivity" ?

Edited January 12, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

Why ? Such "insults" are routinely hurled at other religions, groups, nationalities, etc.

What is so special about Muslims in this context...extra "sensitivity" ?

Nothing special there. My response is the same - see my dialogue with MightyAC about positive/negative impacts of religion and various discussions about Christianity, Catholicism...

[bush_cheney2004]

Nothing special there. My response is the same - see my dialogue with MightyAC about positive/negative impacts of religion and various discussions about Christianity, Catholicism...

Yes...I have already consumed all of that, but remain unconvinced that any special treatment or consideration is due those of Islamic persuasion. The idea of "cofactors" is interesting analysis, but ultimately irrelevant in a free society that will not except murder as just reward for freedom of expression.

Edited January 12, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

Yes...I have already consumed all of that, but remain unconvinced that any special treatment or consideration is due those of Islamic persuasion. The idea of "cofactors" is interesting analysis, but ultimately irrelevant in a free society that will not except murder as just reward for freedom of expression.

No special treatment that I can see. I refuse to condemn Christianity as a religion for abortion clinic bombings too.

[bush_cheney2004]

No special treatment that I can see. I refuse to condemn Christianity as a religion for abortion clinic bombings too.

But you have the right to do so, regardless of any resulting offense taken.

[Michael Hardner]

But you have the right to do so, regardless of any resulting offense taken.

Yes, I have the right to be morally wrong, inconsistent in my ethics, and to insult people. MLW prohibits insults per se, but we're discussing whether this is actually an insult on this thread.

[marcus]

Why ? Such "insults" are routinely hurled at other religions, groups, nationalities, etc.

What is so special about Muslims in this context...extra "sensitivity" ?

That's pure B.S.

Criticism of Israel creates a frenzy on a regular basis. Racist and hateful comments towards Jews create an even a larger negative reaction. There is definitely a lot more sensitivity when it comes to comments made towards Jews than there is when it comes to Muslims. This is more obvious in U.S. and Canada, but it's also in Europe as well.

Charlie Hebdo would have been guilted out of business by the Jewish community/political contributees of the community had it slandered Judaism in a similar way.

In fact, Charlie Hebdo fired a cartoonist and was also charged by France for making so-called "anti-semitic" comments about Sarkozy's son converting to Judaism:

Maurice Sinet, 80, who works under the pen name Sine, faces charges of "inciting racial hatred" for a column he wrote last July in the satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo. The piece sparked a summer slanging match among the Parisian intelligentsia and ended in his dismissal from the magazine.

"L'affaire Sine" followed the engagement of Mr Sarkozy, 22, to Jessica Sebaoun-Darty, the Jewish heiress of an electronic goods chain. Commenting on an unfounded rumour that the president's son planned to convert to Judaism, Sine quipped: "He'll go a long way in life, that little lad."

Edited January 12, 2015 by marcus

[bush_cheney2004]

That's pure B.S.

Criticism of Israel creates a frenzy on a regular basis. A racist and hateful comments towards Jews create an even a larger negative reaction. There is definitely a lot more sensitivity when it comes to comments made towards Jews than there is when it comes to Muslims. This is more obvious in U.S. and Canada, but it's also in Europe as well.

So what ? Do Israelis mount armed attacks against newpapers and cartoonists (negative reaction)?

'merkins are routinely criticized in Canada without fear of murderous attacks.

[Boges]

Europeans have a sensitivity towards Anti-Semitism? I wonder why?!?!?

[marcus]

So what ? Do Israelis mount armed attacks against newpapers and cartoonists (negative reaction)?

'merkins are routinely criticized in Canada without fear of murderous attacks.

Quit being a coward when you are proven wrong by changing the context of the comment. You made this comment:

Why ? Such "insults" are routinely hurled at other religions, groups, nationalities, etc.

What is so special about Muslims in this context...extra "sensitivity" ?

And you were proven wrong by getting an example of the opposite of what you say, not only in France, but also at the same media outlet who is demanding not to be criticized for insulting Muslims.

[bush_cheney2004]

Quit being a coward when you are proven wrong by changing the context of the comment. You made this comment:....

And you were proven wrong by getting an example of the opposite of what you say, not only in France, but also at the same media outlet who is demanding not to be criticized for insulting Muslims.

Nonsense of course...go back to hating Israel...it is your right to be so "offensive".

[Boges]

And you were proven wrong by getting an example of the opposite of what you say, not only in France, but also at the same media outlet who is demanding not to be criticized for insulting Muslims.

I doubt they care if they are criticized. Having dudes with AK-47's rolling up and offing their staff? Now that's something else.

No other identifiable (that I know of) group has a faction that would do something like that.

[bush_cheney2004]

I doubt they care if they are criticized. Having dudes with AK-47's rolling up and offing their staff? Now that's something else.

No other identifiable (that I know of) group has a faction that would do something like that.

Apparently this distinction escapes those who would curtail freedom of expression to avoid such offense.

[marcus]

Nonsense of course...go back to hating Israel...it is your right to be so "offensive".

It is your right to pretend that you were not proven wrong.

[bush_cheney2004]

It is your right to pretend that you were not proven wrong.

You are mistaken...nothing has been proven. Criticism is fair game for all....including French publishers....this point escapes you.

[marcus]

I doubt they care if they are criticized. t's something else.

No other identifiable (that I know of) group has a faction that would do something like that.

I guess you missed the part (even though it's right up there for you to see) where one of their own employees had to go to court for making a comment about Sarkozy's son converting to Judaism and then they fired him.

So yeah, they do care if they are criticized. But only if it is criticism by the Jews.

[Rue]

Marcus you have not suprisingly raised the exact same baseless allegation as Hudson Jones did earleir in stating hateful comments about Jews are treated differently than hateful comments about Muslims. You have zero proof like Hudson Jones buit you throw it out and then fabricated an assumption that if Charlie Hebdo made insulting comments about Jews they would have been guilted out, etc.

Your comments are baseless and in my opinion like Hudson Jones' earlier ones, designed to deflect from the issue and call on resentment of treatment of Jews. In your twisted attempt to argue a position, you try pit Jews against Muslims.

Your comparison not only is without basis and reflects your bias against Jews, but is illogical. Even if one could prove such an absurd thing like the West or Charlie Hebdo prefers Jews to Muslims or treats Jews better than Muslims it is of course not germaine to the attacks.

Charlie Hebdo was no champion of Jewish or Catholic fundamentalism and was openly anti Israel and drafted numerous cartoons criticizing Israel, Jews, Catholics-no one was beyond its critiques so your comments are absurd.

Your attempt not to focus away from Muslim extremism to try focus attention on Jews and you bring up a protest story as if it proves Jews controlled Charlie Hebdo and were able to censor it but Muslims could not.

Using that idiotic premises you now what, would have people believe Muslim extremists fire-bombed and killed journalists because they can't do what the "Jews" did and go to court? Is that your argument? Lol.

Its interesting that you could not resist leaving off where Hudson Jones felt he would not go further in this Jew v. Muslim attempt to create a double standard to justify Muslim extremism.

Its absurdity is amplified by your inability to comment on how these Muslim extremists deliberately chose journalists, a police officer, because they were journalists and police representing those values in the democratic Western society they despise.

What you and H Jones can't acknowledge is the choice of Jews as victims is a blatant example of how Islamic extremists don't just hate Zionists or Israelis, but all Jews everywhere simply because they are Jews.

By the way the quote you provided does not establish anything. You are intellectually lazy. You throw out disjointed references from their original context and then expect peopel to simply infer from them your allegations are true.

You can't of course explain how the black words you single out prove your point, you just ask people to assume they do.

Carry on. The more you write, the more you prove you engage in the very thing with Jews you claim Argus did with Muslims or you are trying to challenge Bush for.

Frenzy on a regular basis? Right. Lol.

[Argus]

ISIS and Al Qaeda do not represent 1.6 billion people who call themselves Muslims. You continously make the mistake of using one brush stroke to paint people who follow a religion. Your ignorance and animosity towards this particular religion makes you a bigot.

It seems it's your ignorance and animosity at play here. My opinion is based entirely on observed behaviour and culture. And it is not restricted to ISIS and Al Qaeda. The great majority of the world's Muslims want to live under Sharia law. That is, by almost any western definition, barbaric, brutal and backward.