New Testament Bible: Pride Is An Evil Thing

[Big Guy]

I find an atheist interpretation of the Bible just as valid as a Christian interpreting the Koran - nil. If you have a pre-set attitude you will see and read what you want to see and read. That is unfortunate since the tenets of all major religions are basically the same. They are a list of social behaviours which will allow the individual to survive in a society and that particular religion to flourish.

I believe that any other interpretation is a self serving exercise in the denial that all men (women) are created equal.

[kimmy]

Depends. Does is mean "don't question what left-wing approved priests scientists say"? or Does it mean is "use the scientific method to understand the world"? I suspect you mean the former and don't like it when people use the scientific method to come to conclusions that you don't like.

For example?

The word "atheism" means to not have a belief in gods. But in our society it has become associated with the brand of secular humanism popular with the left. We likely need a different word for the latter.

There's nothing inherently left-wing in secular humanism. I think secular humanism and libertarianism would be completely compatible. I think that secular humanism and classical liberalism (as opposed to liberalism in the current usage) would be completely compatible. I think the reason secular humanism is sometimes assumed to be a left-wing philosophy is that it is often in direct opposition to traditional views that conservatives are wedded to.

-k

[dpwozney]

What evidence do you have that Jesus Christ actually said the above quote?

Christians believe Jesus Christ referred to pride as being an evil thing.

As a result, endorsing, supporting, and/or celebrating pride does not include Christians (which is the point).

Even if he did say it, and let's just make a massive leap of faith and say Jesus really is the son of God...well sorry I disagree with him, there's nothing wrong with being proud in many cases, especially when many people in society, including yourself, tell you your very nature is "wrong" and "evil".

If it is not evil, it is not pride, according to the word-of-God definition for pride.

Christians do not go around using non-word-of-God definitions and disagreeing with Jesus Christ.

Again, the point is that endorsing, supporting, and/or celebrating pride does not include Christians.

Christians are instructed to "Abstain from all appearance of evil." (1 Thessalonians 5:22)

[Wilber]

Just illustrates how right the Pythons got it when they wrote The Life of Brian.

[msj]

I find an atheist interpretation of the Bible just as valid as a Christian interpreting the Koran - nil.

What an odd statement.

I'm an atheist because I have read the Old and New Testaments and the Koran.

Which is to say that I have read more of "their" books than they have.

IOW: one can't interpret what one has not read in the first place.

[TimG]

IOW: one can't interpret what one has not read in the first place.

Not true. There are literalists, however, the vast majority of the religious learn about their faith from others (e.g. preacher sermons in church). Without the religious community the holy books don't mean much on their own and reading the books outside of the context of a religious community is not going to give you many useful insights into the religion. Edited December 29, 2014 by TimG

[Moonlight Graham]

Christians believe Jesus Christ referred to pride as being an evil thing.

As a result, endorsing, supporting, and/or celebrating pride does not include Christians (which is the point).

If it is not evil, it is not pride, according to the word-of-God definition for pride.

Not all Christians believe that the Bible is the word of God. More importantly, if for some reason you do, what translation of the Bible do you believe? The New International version (among other translations) doesn't translate the text you highlighted as "pride", but "arrogance":

20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. ²¹ For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, ²² adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. ²³ All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”

Pretty difficult (and foolish, which apparently is another sin) to take literally a book that is translated from another language sometimes centuries or millennia ago. You can't achieve an accurate translation of any text in any almost language. Not to mention taking literally a book written by men & edited by men.

[dpwozney]

Not all Christians believe that the Bible is the word of God.

Anybody can call himself or herself a Christian. Anybody can use their own personal definition for Christian. Not all people claiming to be Christian believe that the Bible is the word of God. Not all people claiming to be Christian believe that Jesus Christ referred to pride as being an evil thing. Not all people claiming to be Christian believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ or that Jesus Christ performed any miracles.

Nevertheless, there are Christians who do believe that Jesus Christ referred to pride as being an evil thing. So my original point remains valid: Endorsing, supporting, and/or celebrating pride does not include Christians.

[dpwozney]

The New International version (among other translations) doesn't translate the text you highlighted as "pride", but "arrogance":

The American Standard Version, the Basic English Bible, the Douay-Rheims Bible, the Holman Christian Standard, the King James Version, the Lexham English Bible, the New American Standard Bible, the New Century Version, the New Living Translation, the New Revised Standard Version, the Jerusalem Bible, the Third Millennium Bible, the Webster's Bible, the Weymouth NT, the World English Bible, and the Young's Literal Translation translate the text as "pride".

American Standard Version, Mark 7:20-23

And he said, That which proceedeth out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, covetings, wickednesses, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, railing, pride, foolishness: all these evil things proceed from within, and defile the man.

Basic English Bible, Mark 7:20-23

And he said, That which comes out of the man, that makes the man unclean.

Because from inside, from the heart of men, come evil thoughts and unclean pleasures, The taking of goods and of life, broken faith between husband and wife, the desire of wealth, wrongdoing, deceit, sins of the flesh, an evil eye, angry words, pride, foolish acts: All these evil things come from inside, and make the man unclean.

Douay-Rheims, Mark 7:20-23

But he said that the things which come out from a man, they defile a man. For from within out of the heart of men proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and defile a man.

Holman Christian Standard, Mark 7:20-23

Then He said, "What comes out of a person-that defiles him. For from within, out of people's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immoralities, thefts, murders, adulteries, greed, evil actions, deceit, lewdness, stinginess, a blasphemy, pride, and foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a person."

King James Version, Mark 7:20-23

And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Lexham English Bible, Mark 7:20-23

And he said, "What comes out of a person, that defiles a person. For from within, from the heart of people, come evil plans, sexual immoralities, thefts, murders, adulteries, [acts of] greed, malicious [deeds], deceit, licentiousness, {envy},a abusive speech, pride, foolishness. All these evil [things] come from within and defile a person."

New American Standard Bible, Mark 7:20-23

And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

New Century Version, Mark 7:20-23

And Jesus said, "The things that come out of people are the things that make them unclean. All these evil things begin inside people, in the mind: evil thoughts, sexual sins, stealing, murder, adultery, greed, evil actions, lying, doing sinful things, jealousy, speaking evil of others, pride, and foolish living. All these evil things come from inside and make people unclean."

New Living Translation, Mark 7:20-23

And then he added, It is what comes from inside that defiles you. For from within, out of a persons heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you.

New Revised Standard Version, Mark 7:20-23

And he said, "It is what comes out of a person that defiles. For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."

The Jerusalem Bible, Mark 7:20-23

And he went on, "It is what comes out of a man that makes him unclean. For it is from within, from men's hearts, that evil intentions emerge: fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, malice, deceit, indecency, envy, slander, pride, folly. All these evil things come from within and make a man unclean."

Third Millennium Bible, Mark 7:20-23

And He said, "That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within and defile the man."

Webster's Bible, Mark 7:20-23

And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness; All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Weymouth NT, Mark 7:20-23

"What comes out of a man," He added, "that it is which makes him unclean. For from within, out of men's hearts, their evil purposes proceed--fornication, theft, murder, adultery, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, reviling, pride, reckless folly: all these wicked things come out from within and make a man unclean."

World English Bible, Mark 7:20-23

He said, "That which proceeds out of the man, that defiles the man. For from within, out of the hearts of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, sexual sins, murders, thefts, covetings, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

Young's Literal Translation, Mark 7:20-23

And he said -- `That which is coming out from the man, that doth defile the man; for from within, out of the heart of men, the evil reasonings do come forth, adulteries, whoredoms, murders, thefts, covetous desires, wickedness, deceit, arrogance, an evil eye, evil speaking, pride, foolishness; all these evils do come forth from within, and they defile the man.'

".

[dpwozney]

Pretty difficult (and foolish, which apparently is another sin) to take literally a book that is translated from another language sometimes centuries or millennia ago. You can't achieve an accurate translation of any text in any almost language. Not to mention taking literally a book written by men & edited by men.

Is it your position that the authors of the American Standard Version, the Basic English Bible, the Douay-Rheims Bible, the Holman Christian Standard, the King James Version, the Lexham English Bible, the New American Standard Bible, the New Century Version, the New Living Translation, the New Revised Standard Version, the Jerusalem Bible, the Third Millennium Bible, the Webster's Bible, the Weymouth NT, the World English Bible, and the Young's Literal Translation have all mistranslated the Greek word hyperēphania in Mark 7:22 as "pride"?

[Guest]

There's no mistranslation. The Bible is just wrong. It's wrong about lots of stuff.

[eyeball]

The Tower of Babel is nothing compared to The Tower of Bibles Christians have created.

[Moonlight Graham]

Nevertheless, there are Christians who do believe that Jesus Christ referred to pride as being an evil thing. So my original point remains valid: Endorsing, supporting, and/or celebrating pride does not include Christians.

Corrected:

Endorsing, supporting, and/or celebrating pride does not include some Christians.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Moonlight Graham

[Moonlight Graham]

Is it your position that the authors of the American Standard Version, the Basic English Bible, the Douay-Rheims Bible, the Holman Christian Standard, the King James Version, the Lexham English Bible, the New American Standard Bible, the New Century Version, the New Living Translation, the New Revised Standard Version, the Jerusalem Bible, the Third Millennium Bible, the Webster's Bible, the Weymouth NT, the World English Bible, and the Young's Literal Translation have all mistranslated the Greek word hyperēphania in Mark 7:22 as "pride"?

I honestly have no idea how that particular text has been translated. Sometimes early texts from the 2nd century exist in hebrew to translate, sometimes copies of copies of copies of copies from the 10th century are the oldest that exist etc. Honestly I really don't care.

[dpwozney]

Endorsing, supporting, and/or celebrating pride does not include some Christians.

You seem to be using some different definition for Christian. For my definition of a Christian, a Christian is someone who does not endorse, support, and/or celebrate pride, given that the Greek word hyperēphania in Mark 7:22 has been translated in at least sixteen Bible translations as "pride", and given the other references to pride in various Bible translations.

I honestly have no idea how that particular text has been translated.

But you have the idea that the Greek word hyperēphania in Mark 7:22 has been translated in at least sixteen different Bible translations as "pride". So you actually have some idea.

Pretty difficult (and foolish, which apparently is another sin) to take literally a book that is translated from another language sometimes centuries or millennia ago. You can't achieve an accurate translation of any text in any almost language. Not to mention taking literally a book written by men & edited by men.

According to this article, "... the New Testament documents are very accurate. Therefore, when the scholars translate from the Greek into the English (or into any other language), we can trust that what is translated is accurate and reliable."

[kimmy]

Nevertheless, there are Christians who do believe that Jesus Christ referred to pride as being an evil thing. So my original point remains valid: Endorsing, supporting, and/or celebrating pride does not include Christians.

Who cares?

-k

[dpwozney]

Who cares?

-k

"City of Edmonton Senior Policy Advisor" Gibby Davis is quoted in this December 8th Edmonton Journal article.

"Events like this or pride parades, it gives people that may not always feel they are part of Edmonton an opportunity to feel welcome," Davis said. "I thought it sent a good message to our city that we want everyone to feel included, and the last couple of weeks might not have done that for everyone."

[Michael Hardner]

What are you getting at, though ? Translations of the meaning of "pride" may be inexact, and pride has many meanings anyway. And people don't care about religion, on the whole.

"Pride" as it came to be used in the 1960s for black people in America is as James Brown sang about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Say_It_Loud_%E2%80%93_I%27m_Black_and_I%27m_Proud

That is, it's the opposite of "shame". People should not feel shame about their race or their sexuality. They have to accept it, since they can't change.

[kimmy]

"City of Edmonton Senior Policy Advisor" Gibby Davis is quoted in this December 8th Edmonton Journal article.

If the New Testament ever becomes the operating policy manual for the City of Edmonton, let me know.

-k

[dpwozney]

What are you getting at, though ?

What I am getting at is this: Endorsing, supporting, and/or celebrating pride does not include Christians.

[Guest]

Unless you're a Christian who does. Then it does.

[Michael Hardner]

What I am getting at is this: Endorsing, supporting, and/or celebrating pride does not include Christians.

I think it does. Christians have to weigh out conflicting principles and values, but ultimately it comes down to the golden rule which most definitely backs up the idea that you should love and support people.

[dpwozney]

Unless you're a Christian who does. Then it does.

You seem to be using some different definition for Christian. For my definition of a Christian, a Christian is someone who does not endorse, support, and/or celebrate pride, given that the Greek word hyperēphania in Mark 7:22 has been translated in at least sixteen Bible translations as "pride", and given the other references to pride in various Bible translations.

Edited January 3, 2015 by dpwozney

[kimmy]

Who cares whether Christians support pride or Pride? The Biblical position on pride or Pride is completely irrelevant to the business or running a major city in 2015.

-k

[PrimeNumber]

If "Christians" cannot be prideful in any way, I think we could cut the population of "Christians" in this country in half very easily.

Edited January 3, 2015 by PrimeNumber