First Nations Issues

[Moonbox]

That's right, the people under the chiefs don't have the power to do much if anything about it, they're forced to seek help from Ottawa and for generations Ottawa has always backed the chiefs.

It's a network of dictatorship you see.

Um, no. Are the chiefs appointed by the government, or chosen from the reserve members?

If the natives on the reserve were interested in accountability and where the money is going, why so much outrage when the government demands the books to be opened?

No, this is classic example of a people getting ripped off by their leadership and then being too ignorant/misguided/lazy to fix the problem themselves.

[Accountability Now]

Understanding?

Are you having troubles with the word? The dictionary can be your friend

Hmm.....they get the same no matter where they live. The quality of both may be different, bnoth better or worse, but they get both no MATTER where they live.

They may get it but the Federal funding only comes when they live on the reserve.

Inuit and Métis children and First Nations children living off reserve attend the public schools on the same basis as other children in their communities. Federal funding for First Nations’ education applies only to children living on reserve. - See more at: http://www.netnewsledger.com/2012/01/15/true-or-false-do-aboriginal-people-get-free-post-secondary-education/#sthash.cFytJSqc.dpuf

[TheAboriginalMan]

That's right, the people under the chiefs don't have the power to do much if anything about it, they're forced to seek help from Ottawa and for generations Ottawa has always backed the chiefs.

It's a network of dictatorship you see.

It's only the treaty but that will change too. The intent was to assist us, educate us but what both sides should have realized is the ride wasn't meant to last forever. I honestly don't know what can be done about it all.

[guyser]

Are you having troubles with the word? The dictionary can be your friend

No I quite understand the word, but you see....you live on a reserve and have no idea about taxes? Is this what you wish to portray?

I dont buy it.

They may get it but the Federal funding only comes when they live on the reserve.

And if they move to a city...or rural, they get schooling and healthcare. So whats the difference? You show as much in your link.

Why does anyone care if the Feds pay or the local school taxes pay?

[TheAboriginalMan]

Study for what 10 more yrs and many millions of dollars, we know what is wrong. The problem starts with the leadership of the 1st nations. When they canned the education money because they would have to tell the gov how they spent it, tells us everything we need to know. And blaming whitey for all the problems must stop FIRST before we can go anywhere.

Agree. Grow up reservations!

[TheAboriginalMan]

I'm pretty sure income tax free money has to be earned on the reserve. It doesn't apply to money earned off reserve. I think there have been the odd attempt to base a company on a reserve even though they conduct off reserve in hopes of using it like a tax-haven but probably only by corrupt chiefs or cronies. I doubt ordinary folks on reserves have any more more opportunity to influence or game they system than ordinary folks off reserves do.

It's nice but it's very rare I have only worked at two tax free companies in my whole life. There aren't many jobs on a reserve. We have two stores who employ their family and that does seem ethical because those business' are privately owned and operated. The rest of the work is for the band.

[Argus]

It's very hard to move from the place you grew up, where your entire family is, where all your friends are and everything you know, and go out into a world with a different culture, one you're afraid people will dislike you in because you're an outsider. I can certainly see why a lot of people stay on the reserves despite the bad living conditions.

The problem is leadership, compounded by how distributed it is. There are 641 tribal chiefs, and they all want different things (except they all want more money and power). And their interests as the ruling class are not necessarily the same as the interests of natives. Getting them all to agree on anything is impossible unless it's to simply accept new money without any strings or supervision, which the government won't do. Nor do they seem much interested in compromises.

I'd like to see the creation of a native ombudsman's office, with the ombudsman being directly elected by the people (not the chiefs) of all the reserves and given the power to confront and take to task native band councils and chiefs for abuse of power and funds.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Argus

[TheAboriginalMan]

Um, no. Are the chiefs appointed by the government, or chosen from the reserve members?

If the natives on the reserve were interested in accountability and where the money is going, why so much outrage when the government demands the books to be opened?

No, this is classic example of a people getting ripped off by their leadership and then being too ignorant/misguided/lazy to fix the problem themselves.

Because we are gullible. Im not really sure what got us into that movement. Our bands didn't buy us KFC or anything they just treated us like a dog after shooting a quail "Go get it!!!" once billc 45 went into effect. Im not sure why the entirety of canada did not protest that bill... Had that bill passed canada would have been ripped apart by the oil companies.

[TheAboriginalMan]

It's very hard to move from the place you grew up, where your entire family is, where all your friends are and everything you know, and go out into a world with a different culture, one you're afraid people will dislike you in because you're an outsider. I can certainly see why a lot of people stay on the reserves despite the bad living conditions.

The problem is leadership, compounded by how distributed it is. There are 641 tribal chiefs, and they all want different things (except they all want more money and power). And their interests as the ruling class are not necessarily the same as the interests of natives. Getting them all to agree on anything is impossible unless it's to simply accept new money without any strings or supervision, which the government won't do. Nor do they seem much interested in compromises.

I'd like to see the creation of a native ombudsman's office, with the ombudsman being directly elected by the people (not the chiefs) of all the reserves and given the power to confront and take to task native band councils and chiefs for abuse of power and funds.

NATIVE OMBUDSMAN! I like it!!! His office would be super duper busy lol

[Accountability Now]

"This is all I know, Im not smart enough to be out there".

This is truly the sad part as its simply not true.

This was poundmakers intent when he negotiated his treaty and he was believed to be a prophet as well. "The 7th generation will be free" we can mull over the meanings of this prophecy by I believe that the treaties will dissolve and the ride will be over.

I can't see how either side thought that the treaties would or could last forever. I always believed the British were using the treaties with the ultimate hope of assimilation but that hasn't happened either.

I think both side's have given eachother enough reason to not allow a buyout or phase option but both must feel the burn if such a phase option was ever initiated. There are many things I would like to have in exchange for my treaty rights.

Fair enough. I can see how the First Nations wouldn't trust the government but I do think they have an opportunity to set themselves up if they do it right. The kicker is that by doing it right, it would involve some sort of end game which is how the government would sell it on the people of Canada.

[eyeball]

Um, no. Are the chiefs appointed by the government, or chosen from the reserve members?

Some chiefs are hereditary and some are elected, within a reserve system of government that is imposed on them and overseen by Ottawa.

If the natives on the reserve were interested in accountability and where the money is going, why so much outrage when the government demands the books to be opened? No, this is classic example of a people getting ripped off by their leadership and then being too ignorant/misguided/lazy to fix the problem themselves.

Look around the world at peoples that are struggling to overcome generations of colonial abuse, most still face suspicion and criticism by the people they're struggling to get out from under and it's no different here. Moderate voices are often very heard to hear over the din. This is even more so in a small isolated community where there's usually an us vs the outsiders dynamic to issues where most people will usually rally around their own.

Openly and publicly speaking truth to power always exposes the speaker to trouble and sometimes even danger.

[Accountability Now]

No I quite understand the word, but you see....you live on a reserve and have no idea about taxes? Is this what you wish to portray?

Portray? Its the reality of the situation. I personally know members of a First Nation reserve that brag about not paying taxes. They even offered to buy my truck for me to save me the GST. So i don't need to portray anything.

And if they move to a city...or rural, they get schooling and healthcare. So whats the difference? You show as much in your link.

Why does anyone care if the Feds pay or the local school taxes pay?

If they moved to a city then the education and healthcare would be paid for by their local property tax and income taxes like everyone else. If they stay on the reserve, the federal government is paying for it. So yes...there is a difference! When you're tax dollars are paying for it that means YOU are paying for it even if its declared free. Just like our 'free health care' that we pay for through our taxes.

Getting it paid for by the federal government truly means that DID NOT pay for it as they never paid the taxes to fund it.

[eyeball]

It's only the treaty but that will change too. The intent was to assist us, educate us but what both sides should have realized is the ride wasn't meant to last forever. I honestly don't know what can be done about it all.

Keep hammering away at and demanding transparency transparency transparency at every opportunity and at every level of government and authority on the planet. Keep goading the sycophants and toadies and drawi them out into the open so their ridiculous attitudes can be seen and understood for what they represent, which is just more of the same.

It's us vs them, the ruled vs the rulers and the struggle is happening all around the planet. You're definitely not alone.

[guyser]

Portray? Its the reality of the situation.

So, in essence you are saying you have no idea about taxation on reserve (both income and sales)?

I personally know members of a First Nation reserve that brag about not paying taxes.

Well, they can brag if the money was earned on the reserve. Nothing wrong with that per se.

They even offered to buy my truck for me to save me the GST. So i don't need to portray anything.

That it is fraud is a good reason to have declined.

If they moved to a city then the education and healthcare would be paid for by their local property tax and income taxes like everyone else.

YOu are aware renters dont pay prop tax directly? And healthcare is available almost anywhere but in fact better off reserve?

If they stay on the reserve, the federal government is paying for it. So yes...there is a difference! When you're tax dollars are paying for it that means YOU are paying for it even if its declared free. Just like our 'free health care' that we pay for through our taxes.

Getting it paid for by the federal government truly means that DID NOT pay for it as they never paid the taxes to fund it.

But in fact everyone pays some taxes so that arguments is lost.

[Accountability Now]

So, in essence you are saying you have no idea about taxation on reserve (both income and sales)?

Please show me where my statement about them not paying taxes when living on a reserve is incorrect. I'll wait for your articulate answer...

Well, they can brag if the money was earned on the reserve. Nothing wrong with that per se.

Sure they can. Of course the point I was trying to prove and to which you now agree to is they don't pay taxes when they live on a reserve. Now that wasn't so hard to figure out...was it?

That it is fraud is a good reason to have declined.

No...its not. They buy the vehicle and then sell it second hand. All they have to do is prove that the vehicle was on the reserve at one point which is usually done with a photo. Not ethical but not fraud.

YOu are aware renters dont pay prop tax directly? And healthcare is available almost anywhere but in fact better off reserve?

However renters do pay it indirectly which is still YOU paying the tax which is paying for the school. How do you not understand how this is different that having the Feds pay using money that you contriubuted nothing to (directly or indirectly).

Again...healthcare is subsidized through taxes which again would be something they would be paying for assuming they are working off reserve. I know that Alberta used to require a yearly payment from the individual on top of this whcih was about $200-$300 more per year although they got rid of that a while back.

But in fact everyone pays some taxes so that arguments is lost.

Again...you miss the main point...everyone pays some tax as long as they aren't living on the reserve. Name one tax that people living on the reserve have to pay.

[Shady]

Ummm.....back to school for you.

Benefit: Something that is advantageous or good, an advantage.

[guyser]

Sorry forgot to add the benefit of not paying taxes while living on reserves.

Here ya go.

Not the truth as stated.

Taxes are paid for income earned of reserve.

[PIK]

The problem with picking a new chief the people have no say. That is a dictatorship.

[guyser]

Please show me where my statement about them not paying taxes when living on a reserve is incorrect. I'll wait for your articulate answer...

Right above this one.

Sure they can. Of course the point I was trying to prove and to which you now agree to is they don't pay taxes when they live on a reserve. Now that wasn't so hard to figure out...was it?

Apparently it still is hard for you. They dont pay income tax ON INCOME MADE on reserve. PLenty of poeple live on reserve but work off it and pay tax.

No...its not. They buy the vehicle and then sell it second hand. All they have to do is prove that the vehicle was on the reserve at one point which is usually done with a photo. Not ethical but not fraud.

Well, this is not what you wrote. My point still stands.

However renters do pay it indirectly which is still YOU paying the tax which is paying for the school. How do you not understand how this is different that having the Feds pay using money that you contriubuted nothing to (directly or indirectly).

I understand quite well, it would appear your myopia has something to do with your failure to see the bigger picture.

Some may be paying it indirectly, many arent. Many landlords buy a house/apt bldg , rent it out but have shortfalls in costs each and every year. (taxable situation) The value of same goes up and thats where the money lies.

I suppose there are 5 people in Canada whom never go off rez, who never buy anything off rez , and thus they pay no taxes anywhere.

I dont worry about those 5 though.

Again...you miss the main point...everyone pays some tax as long as they aren't living on the reserve. Name one tax that people living on the reserve have to pay.

Income tax in many cases.

Sales tax in many cases.

Already explained to boot !

[guyser]

Benefit: Something that is advantageous or good, an advantage.

Good one shady, you know benefits

Means of course your still stuck in ignorance land for the remark. No taxes?.... .....for everything...right?

Edited December 10, 2014 by Guyser2

[Moonbox]

Some chiefs are hereditary and some are elected, within a reserve system of government that is imposed on them and overseen by Ottawa.

Either way, the government does not choose the reserve's leadership. The reserve chooses it, plain and simple. What's worse is that the government doesn't even have the power to remove a band leader who's essentially stealing from his people. Even trying to open the books or criticize the fraudster is met with hostility from most of the reserves. That's 100% their own stupid fault.

This is even more so in a small isolated community where there's usually an us vs the outsiders dynamic to issues where most people will usually rally around their own.

Yes, the band leaders stealing from their own people make ample use of this characteristic of ignorant human behavior. Rather than see how one of their own is stealing right from underneath their noses, they are easily duped into believing he/she is championing their cause against 'outsiders'.

Openly and publicly speaking truth to power always exposes the speaker to trouble and sometimes even danger.

So you're saying these band leaders are thugs as well as fraudsters?

[Shady]

Good one shady, you know benefits

Means of course your still stuck in ignorance land for the remark. No taxes?.... .....for everything...right?

Not for everything, but much much less taxes. You don't think that's a benefit? Maybe you should pay more in taxes then.

[eyeball]

Either way, the government does not choose the reserve's leadership. The reserve chooses it, plain and simple. What's worse is that the government doesn't even have the power to remove a band leader who's essentially stealing from his people. Even trying to open the books or criticize the fraudster is met with hostility from most of the reserves. That's 100% their own stupid fault.

The government designed the reserve system of governance, not the people who are actually governed by it. It's not a lack of power - Ottawa doesn't have the will to change anything. Opening the books the way Harper is proposing is far more about optics and reaffirming his base of support's confirmation biases which explains why people don't by it.

Yes, the band leaders stealing from their own people make ample use of this characteristic of ignorant human behavior. Rather than see how one of their own is stealing right from underneath their noses, they are easily duped into believing he/she is championing their cause against 'outsiders'.

Yep, you see this all the time in politics around the planet - it's a human condition. It'll sure be interesting to see how things unfold when aliens arrive and start trying to explain our history to them.

So you're saying these band leaders are thugs as well as fraudsters?

I'm saying there is a lot of pressure on individuals to not speak out against their own people and air their dirty laundry in public.

Depending on where you are in the world that pressure can be cultural/tribal/social/political/religious or any volatile combination of these. In many places people who do speak out face being detained, imprisoned, raped, tortured, murdered, banished, stigmatized, ridiculed, humiliated...you name it.

Look at what we do to some of our own whistle-blowers. Even respectable whistle-blowers like auditor generals and PBO's face a lot of heat and resistance from people and supporters of people who are in or closest to power.

[jacee]

It's only the treaty but that will change too. The intent was to assist us, educate us but what both sides should have realized is the ride wasn't meant to last forever. I honestly don't know what can be done about it all.

The "ride" wasn't meant to last forever ... "meant" by whom?

Government?

Aboriginal people?

What's the time limit on the treaties?

.

[Moonbox]

The government designed the reserve system of governance, not the people who are actually governed by it. It's not a lack of power - Ottawa doesn't have the will to change anything. Opening the books the way Harper is proposing is far more about optics and reaffirming his base of support's confirmation biases which explains why people don't by it.

The government didn't appoint or force leaders upon the reserves that steal from them. They also can't remove them whenit's obvious that's what they're doing. The government certainly set up the overall system, but it takes the ignorance and/or negligence of the bands to allow themselves to get fleeced by leaders they're responsible for choosing.

As for opening the books, this about transparency along with the optics you suggest. When the government sends money to the reserves and then sees it literally stolen by crooked leaders, it's fairly reasonable that they'd want this to stop. The only people that can stop it, however, are the band members themselves. If they actually knew how their leaders were essentially embezzling hundreds of thousands from them, they'd be angry. Instead they make a concerted and fully moronic effort to ensure they are not made aware of how they're being robbed and instead take direction from the people stealing from them and rant against the government. It's tragically stupid.

Yep, you see this all the time in politics around the planet - it's a human condition.

Yes, you absolutely do see it happening all over the planet and throughout history. It's called Social Identity Theory. Read a book or two about world history and you'll see how it's been responsible for some of the stupidest and some of the most violent undertakings in human history.

I'm saying there is a lot of pressure on individuals to not speak out against their own people and air their dirty laundry in public.

They don't have to speak out against their own people. Working together to remove corrupt leaders is not an embarrassing undertaking. It shows some integrity and some responsibility.

In many places people who do speak out face being detained, imprisoned, raped, tortured, murdered, banished, stigmatized, ridiculed, humiliated...you name it.

We're not in Pakistan. This is Canada.

Look at what we do to some of our own whistle-blowers. Even respectable whistle-blowers like auditor generals and PBO's face a lot of heat and resistance from people and supporters of people who are in or closest to power.

Yes, the auditor general of Ontario just lambasted the Liberal government. The response from the Ontario government was, "You don't know what you're talking about." The response from the public, however, is outrage against the government, not the auditor general.