Bonam Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 First, we failed to quarantine this Ebola outbreak in its source region. Next, Western health care workers, in their incompetence and callousness, spread this thing to additional African nations where it was not present otherwise. Next, we failed to properly screen passengers coming from affected areas into the US and other Western nations. Next, we allowed patients with Ebola-like symptoms who had recently traveled to West Africa to linger on the streets even when they tried to go to hospitals, exposing many other people. Next, there was a failure to train or prepare hospital workers on how to safely care for Ebola patients, allowing the disease to spread to these workers. And, to top it all off, those health care workers who had been potentially exposed to Ebola have been allowed to fly on commercial flights, one when she already had fever and was thus contagious, exposing potentially everyone else on the flight, almost guaranteeing that any containment effort will now fail, as these people now also continue to travel around the country. The CDC and the US government have shown utter incompetence and utter lack of leadership, common sense, or even basic survival instinct on this issue. The failure is staggering in its complete scope, the utter lack of care or precautions at every single step of the process, the complete callousness with which this extremely deadly disease is being treated. Even now, the individuals exposed to Ebola on flight 1143 are not yet under quarantine, nor are the exposed health care workers from Presbyterian hospital (all of which must be assumed to be infected now until proven otherwise). And, individuals from affected nations in West Africa continue to arrive daily without any screenings. The current death toll is only the tip of the iceberg, largely due to incompetence by the US in dealing with this outbreak, incompetence so profound that it is largely indistinguishable from purposeful spread of the disease. Now that any chance of containment has been sabotaged by this incompetence, the only hope will be on quickly developing and mass producing a vaccine, cure, or treatment, a much more costly and likely longer term effort. Frankly, this level of failure is shocking. I don't expect much from the US government or authorities in this day and age with how much they have shown their ineffectiveness and wrongheadedness in other matters, but I think myself and many others had the impression that disease control was still taken seriously and carried out with some level of professionalism. That is clearly not the case, and America's response has in fact been less effective than that of Nigeria (another nation exposed to Ebola due to the idiocy of an American). Think about that for a bit, America is less effective at implementing basic public health protocols than a third world country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 The utter incompetence comes from fashioning public health policy around political correctness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 ....The CDC and the US government have shown utter incompetence and utter lack of leadership, common sense, or even basic survival instinct on this issue. The failure is staggering in its complete scope, the utter lack of care or precautions at every single step of the process, the complete callousness with which this extremely deadly disease is being treated. Even now, the individuals exposed to Ebola on flight 1143 are not yet under quarantine, nor are the exposed health care workers from Presbyterian hospital (all of which must be assumed to be infected now until proven otherwise). And, individuals from affected nations in West Africa continue to arrive daily without any screenings. LOL...nice rant ! But I don't recall such passionate criticism during the colossal screw ups in Ontario during the SARS fiasco. Should the U.S. have banned all travel to and from Canada ? The U.S. did not start the Ebola crisis...it can only react just like any other nation There are screenings...with laser thermometers! This is going to be fun ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 The nurse that flew with a fever has probably let the genie out of the bottle. Every door she touched at the airport, the documents she traded with various staff, the airplane seat and seatbelt, any washroom facilities, any taxis. What a stupid, stupid woman. But any country that has thus far refused to restrict air travel could be in for the same. It's been reported that the virus can be in a person for up to a week with no symptoms whatsoever. By trying to downplay the fears with strategies like this, they are putting the world at risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 ....By trying to downplay the fears with strategies like this, they are putting the world at risk. True...but the world was already at risk. Starting a panic and sending sick people underground won't help. The U.S. has had more deaths this year from the enterovirus D68 and garden variety influenza. We seem to repeat the exact same cycle on this forum every time a juicy epidemic or pandemic pops up. This too will pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) All these officials say not to worry about ebola because you need to be in direct contact and it's difficult to spread yada yada, then you have leading health experts working with the virus in Africa dying from exposure despite i'm sure serious precautions by them and PhD knowledge of how it spreads. Maybe anyone coming from W. Africa should be automatically quarantined for a minimum amount of days even with no symptoms. Edited October 16, 2014 by Moonlight Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) Zoo exchanges for captive animals are routinely quarantined for 30 or more days to protect the local population (of animals). But it is exceedingly difficult for epidemiologists and other experts to get such a protocol mandated for citizens or non-citizens traveling across borders. Quarantines are even broken down into voluntary and non-voluntary...then the attorneys and courts get involved...very messy. See "Typhoid Mary"....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoid_Mary Edited October 16, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 LOL...nice rant ! But I don't recall such passionate criticism during the colossal screw ups in Ontario during the SARS fiasco. Should the U.S. have banned all travel to and from Canada ? SARS and Ebola are very different things. The death rate for SARS was tiny in comparison. As for banning travel between the US and Canada... right now it's Canada that should be thinking about closing the border with the US. The U.S. did not start the Ebola crisis...it can only react just like any other nation There are screenings...with laser thermometers! Obviously completely ineffective since you can be infected but not yet have a fever. Idiocy. This is going to be fun ! Maybe, until you or someone you know gets sick. Sadly, a very real possibility with how utterly this whole thing has been bungled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) The nurse that flew with a fever has probably let the genie out of the bottle. Every door she touched at the airport, the documents she traded with various staff, the airplane seat and seatbelt, any washroom facilities, any taxis. What a stupid, stupid woman. Well, clearly the woman was dumb to do this, but that's excusable, an individual person can be dumb, can make a mistake. But that the procedures in place allowed this to happen, were not monitoring the movements of these health care workers 24/7, is utterly inexcusable. The officials responsible should be prosecuted accordingly, at the very least as a negligence causing death charge, with as many counts as there will be Ebola victims in the US. But any country that has thus far refused to restrict air travel could be in for the same. It's been reported that the virus can be in a person for up to a week with no symptoms whatsoever. Not only that but it can remain alive on an inorganic surface for long periods. Touch a door handle, and anyone touching it again for days after could be infected. Edited October 16, 2014 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 Maybe anyone coming from W. Africa should be automatically quarantined for a minimum amount of days even with no symptoms. That's an absolute minimum measure at this point. But kind of too late given that the disease has already escaped containment in the US population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) SARS and Ebola are very different things. The death rate for SARS was tiny in comparison. As for banning travel between the US and Canada... right now it's Canada that should be thinking about closing the border with the US. Fair enough...so why hasn't Canada (or any other nation) done so ? Travel to and from the U.S. rages on in normal fashion. Obviously completely ineffective since you can be infected but not yet have a fever. Idiocy. Yep...but it is fun. We have started charting our laser temps just to play along at home using one of these: Maybe, until you or someone you know gets sick. Sadly, a very real possibility with how utterly this whole thing has been bungled. Even if I get sick....how many times do I need to panic every time we get yet another "outbreak" ? Using the rhetoric from another war, if we take away freedoms and rights....then Ebola wins ! Edited October 16, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 We seem to repeat the exact same cycle on this forum every time a juicy epidemic or pandemic pops up. This too will pass. This is the first disease to enter the US in recent times with a high death rate and easy transmission. Flu and similar have tiny fatality rates, while diseases like AIDS which at first had a very high death rate could be transmitted only through sexual activity. Ebola is different in that, if not handled properly, it really can kill 50-80% of the population. That is simply not a statement that could have been made with any kind of legitimacy regarding any other disease to have entered the Western world in the last several decades. And, so far there is no sign of it being handled properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) Even if I get sick....how many times do I need to panic every time we get yet another "outbreak" ? Using the rhetoric from another war, if we take away freedoms and rights....then Ebola wins ! That rhetoric can stay with the war where it applies. In the case of Ebola, it is a virus that can (with proper measures) easily be contained and eradicated. Once done, quarantine and other measures are no longer needed. There are hundreds of historical examples of hospitals, cities and nations successfully implementing quarantine procedures to deal with dangerous diseases, and then repealing these procedures once the disease was gotten rid of. There is no need to fear governments arbitrarily quarantining people for weeks once Ebola is gone. And I agree, panics about most "outbreaks" are overdone. I didn't give a damn about the SARS or swine flu outbreaks, because they really weren't particularly threatening. The difference in death rates is the key. Media hypes up any outbreak of anything to get viewers, but those of us with brains can and should realize the difference between things like flu and things like Ebola. Here in Seattle, when there was talk at one of the hospitals of bringing in an Ebola patient for treatment, all the nurses said if an Ebola patient enters the hospital, they are walking off the job. Gone. The plan was quickly nixed. The fact that health care workers fear this disease and are unwilling to treat it should give you a sense of what will happen once it enters the general population. Lack of proper treatment, people dying in the streets like in Africa. Edited October 16, 2014 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 ... That is simply not a statement that could have been made with any kind of legitimacy regarding any other disease to have entered the Western world in the last several decades. And, so far there is no sign of it being handled properly. Well, that's the problem. Any expectation(s) that it would be "handled" differently were wrong from the 'git go. The logistics and legal hurdles to impose such protocols are extremely difficult and never 100% effective. This disease will run its course just like any other. I am old...have seen lots of stuff come and go, so I am not spooked by another go at it. You know what scared me...POLIO....that was over 50 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 I am old...have seen lots of stuff come and go, so I am not spooked by another go at it. You know what scared me...POLIO....that was over 50 years ago. So why did a disease where 90% of cases are asymptomatic and only a few % are fatal scare you, whereas Ebola which is 50-80% fatal does not? Other than the fact that you still had a long life ahead of you back then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 So why did a disease where 90% of cases are asymptomatic and only a few % are fatal scare you, whereas Ebola which is 50-80% fatal does not? Other than the fact that you still had a long life ahead of you back then? Because Polio put kids in iron lungs, leg braces, and blindness if it didn't kill them...and mostly it didn't. Ebola has not earned its stripes yet....not with me or the cynical American public. Impress me Ebola...like the "Spanish" flu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 Because Polio put kids in iron lungs, leg braces, and blindness if it didn't kill them...and mostly it didn't. Oh so scary pictures of iron lungs is what did it for you, got it. Impress me Ebola...like the "Spanish" flu. Ah yes Spanish flu, a disease that killed ~10% of those it infected, and far fewer among healthy adults. Ebola has 5-8x higher death rates. You can put up your front of bravado but I know that underneath there you are a smart enough dude to know what these numbers mean and imply. Ebola has not earned its stripes yet....not with me or the cynical American public. The issue isn't a cynical public but incompetent leadership. Support for stronger measures to contain Ebola has been there for months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 Oh so scary pictures of iron lungs is what did it for you, got it. Not pictures....real kids in iron lungs. Ah yes Spanish flu, a disease that killed ~10% of those it infected, and far fewer among healthy adults. Ebola has 5-8x higher death rates. You can put up your front of bravado but I know that underneath there you are a smart enough dude to know what these numbers mean and imply. Actually, I am smart enough to know that the higher the mortality rate, the faster hosts die and can no longer spread the virus / disease. That's why corpse management is more important than media driven panic. The math on these kind of things is sometimes counter intuitive....Ebola has been around for quite some time. I do not fear Ebola....I am far more likely to be killed by far more common causes. The issue isn't a cynical public but incompetent leadership. Support for stronger measures to contain Ebola has been there for months. And it has been rejected.....need a much bigger body count. Hell, the cops shoot more people each week ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 Not only that but it can remain alive on an inorganic surface for long periods. Touch a door handle, and anyone touching it again for days after could be infected. Dried virus on surfaces survives only for several hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 It is the entire world that is lacking in leadership to address this. This disease needs to be contained at the source and it is sadly lacking in health care workers, clinics, disinfectant solutions, suits for the health workers and lots and lots of cash. It was good to see Zuckerberg donate 25 million. Let's hope more follow suit. I heard that at least 1 billion is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted October 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 Dried virus on surfaces survives only for several hours. Source? Same guys that said the containment procedures at Presbyterian were adequate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 The CDC and the US government have shown utter incompetence and utter lack of leadership, common sense, or even basic survival instinct on this issue. you prefaced this with several "we failed" references... so far, that we (for the most significant and relevant parts) is the U.S. federal (and related state) governments, the U.S. CDC, and Texas health personnel/agencies. When I saw Rick Perry showing up everywhere wearing his serious glasses, I thought Ebola didn't stand a chance in Texas! Colour me wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) I think we should take a cue from the movie Outbreak and bomb Dallas. Edited October 16, 2014 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 No way....Romo and the Cowboys are off to a great start this year....5 - 1 ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted October 16, 2014 Report Share Posted October 16, 2014 It's all good, they actually play in Arlington. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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