War Against ISIL

[GostHacked]

Do not get me wrong. This situation is an abomination. It is also the first example of American "BOOTS ON THE GROUND" in Syria. I am trying to be honest in coverage of what is happening on the ground. I have noticed that the American networks are really playing up this raid and I assume that it helps to bury the disconcerting news for the West that Isis is close to taking Ramadi - only 65 miles from Baghdad.

Score one for the "bad" guys.

I've read enough of your posts to conclude that you and me have very similar outlooks with regards to the CrISIS in the Middle East (sometimes I mistype and put Missle East).

[sharkman]

Do not get me wrong. This situation is an abomination. It is also the first example of American "BOOTS ON THE GROUND" in Syria. I am trying to be honest in coverage of what is happening on the ground. I have noticed that the American networks are really playing up this raid and I assume that it helps to bury the disconcerting news for the West that Isis is close to taking Ramadi - only 65 miles from Baghdad.

Score one for the "bad" guys.

You are trying to be honest? Just what does that entail? You read some stuff on the internet and honestly repeat it? Have you read accurate accounts? Complete accounts? How would you even know, with your anti-west bias you obviously are selective in what you read or "honestly" believe. Reporting that Isis is providing medical care and leaving it at that tells me all I need to know about the honesty of your approach.

And then you surmise that it's better now than under the Iraqi government with free elections. Isis rules with sharia law where a thief gets his hand cut off. Wow, I'm sure a hungry thief has it coming for stealing that bread. Tell me, just what do they do to those guilty of being Jew or Christian? I'm sure they get what's coming to them too. And no doubt gays get the sharia love.

Edited May 18, 2015 by sharkman

[dre]

And then you surmise that it's better now than under the Iraqi government with free elections.

Youre not paying attention. Sunnis and Shia vote in blocks against each other, and the Iraqi government is more or less an Iranian Shia proxy. The Sunni population is perpetually disenfranchised in that arrangement, and is why in many cases ISIL was greated as liberators, and supported by large segments of the Sunni population.

To Sunnis the "free elections" youre talking about simply mean domination by a larger rival sect.

Like I said... the place needs to be partitioned, and the Sunnis should have their own state... and they WILL. Its a forgone conclusion.

[Big Guy]

To sharkman - I am commenting on what I saw on the documentary that is being replayed again on CNN. It supports what has been suggested by Fareed Zakaria and others who are experts on the Middle East. As to bias, I suggest that because I criticize the way that the West has been approaching the Middle East that I have some kind of "bias". I try to state facts as I see them and the consequences of those facts. I get my information from the Internet - yes. The Internet sites for Al Jazeera, Associated Press, New York Times, Pravda, Kiev Post, The Economist, Reuters, Toronto Star, Globe and Mail, National Post and our local newspaper as well as CNN, CTV, CBC and ABC news.

Perhaps you could site examples opposing my facts on objective news media sites. It is now generally accepted by the USA spokespeople that the Sunnis, when presented a choice between the Shiite leadership in Baghdad and the Sunni ISIL forces are choosing ISIS. There must be a good reason for them to be doing that.

In actual fact, Ramadi has been taken by ISIS and they are awaiting and anticipating a retaliatory attack by Shiite militias (who have a reputation for butchering Sunnis) and Iranian "volunteers". So the West continues to provide air cover for Iranian Shiite troops. And this is good politics or credible policy?

[Big Guy]

To dre - What I have heard from those who know what is going on is that Iraq should disappear. The Shiite parts of the old Iraq become part of Iran. The Sunni part becomes ISIL, The Northern Kurds part becomes part of Turkey, What is left of Syria stays as a smaller country. That is - until the next war.

[sharkman]

To sharkman - I am commenting on what I saw on the documentary that is being replayed again on CNN. It supports what has been suggested by Fareed Zakaria and others who are experts on the Middle East. As to bias, I suggest that because I criticize the way that the West has been approaching the Middle East that I have some kind of "bias". I try to state facts as I see them and the consequences of those facts. I get my information from the Internet - yes. The Internet sites for Al Jazeera, Associated Press, New York Times, Pravda, Kiev Post, The Economist, Reuters, Toronto Star, Globe and Mail, National Post and our local newspaper as well as CNN, CTV, CBC and ABC news.

Perhaps you could site examples opposing my facts on objective news media sites. It is now generally accepted by the USA spokespeople that the Sunnis, when presented a choice between the Shiite leadership in Baghdad and the Sunni ISIL forces are choosing ISIS. There must be a good reason for them to be doing that.

In actual fact, Ramadi has been taken by ISIS and they are awaiting and anticipating a retaliatory attack by Shiite militias (who have a reputation for butchering Sunnis) and Iranian "volunteers". So the West continues to provide air cover for Iranian Shiite troops. And this is good politics or credible policy?

To bigguy: It's quite obvious what you are commenting on. What you don't get is that there are "experts" on different sides of the conflict, all saying different things. You have chosen one such side, based on your world view. That's a nice list of media, and talk is cheap.

In your glowing post on how ISIS is treating the people it's captured in its territory, tell me again, I missed it. How are Jews and Christians being treated? How are gays being treated? Do you believe that gays should have equal rights as citizens?

Edited May 18, 2015 by sharkman

[Big Guy]

You are asking questions which I cannot answer. I do know that a few months ago, our leaders in the West told us that about 25,000 crazy fanatics calling themselves ISIS were creating problems in the Middle East. This group of 25,000 which would represent about half the number of people who could fit into a Rogers Centre Blue Jays game are now in control of most of Iraq and about half of Syria. There is a lot more than an invasion by crazies going on.

And you still appear to believe what you hear from our media.

I resent your use of subjective terms like my "glowing" posts. I reiterate facts and objective observations as I see them. I would like to see a "glowing" democracy unfolding in the Middle East, all people getting along with each other and a stop to war and killing. But it looks like that is not going to happen. I do give my views on why this is happening.

You accuse me of taking a "side" in describing of what is going on. Please share with me the views of the "other side" to give this thread an equal balance.

I accept any criticism of my opinion as the cost of participating here but I would appreciate seeing your opinion of the cause, current situation and projected future of this ... conflict.

Thank you for reading my opinion and your comments.

[sharkman]

You seem unaware of the groups of Christians that ISIS has executed. It's been all over the news. Mind you, Christians and Jews and others have not been hanging around to see what life is like under terrorists uttering murderous threats.

Christians

Jews

You claim to be unaware of how ISIS threats these groups. Perhaps you could explain how that is when you claim to regularly read the following group of media outlets:

I try to state facts as I see them and the consequences of those facts. I get my information from the Internet - yes. The Internet sites for Al Jazeera, Associated Press, New York Times, Pravda, Kiev Post, The Economist, Reuters, Toronto Star, Globe and Mail, National Post and our local newspaper as well as CNN, CTV, CBC and ABC news.

And then, you forgot to mention what your views are regarding the rights of gays. What are your views?

[Big Guy]

I believe that we in Canada have the right approach to Christians, Jews, Muslims (most of us anyway) and all religions. Our democracy has created laws that protect the rights of LGBT community and treats them the same as all citizens - which they should. I think Canada is a wonderful place to live and we have evolved over the centuries into one of the glowing democracies in the world.

Now what that has to do with the Middle East seems to be our point of difference. The world is composed of hundreds of communities, some of them formed into countries, some not. Those communities evolve at their own pace depending on many factors: size, proximity to democracies, GNP, resources etc - there are thousands of factors.

I believe that the problem occurs when we from the West decide that our form of government, which took a very, very long time to evolve should be imposed on third world countries whose populations are ill prepared to accept the basic tenet: We cast votes to decide on who we want to govern us. We then grant the elected officials our right to decision making to make decisions for us. Even if we disagree we go along with those decisions because we are an educated society - we know what other forms of governing have done in the past in other parts of the world and have agreed to live with this democracy - even if the folks elected are not the ones we choose. Democracy is a very sophisticated form of social organization which goes against the basic nature of man.

I could go on for hours but this is not the place.

I believe that the Middle East is in turmoil because outside forces have gotten involved to change the rate of evolution, the delicate balances of power based on years of interaction and have created power vacuums into which the most zealous are prepared to jump.

I am quite aware of what is happening with Christians, Jews, Sunnis, Shiites, and the various other Muslim sects. That is the individual growing societies problem, that is their right to deal with those problems in their own way.

If you are feel that the West should somehow get involved and impose our views on them then I disagree. They have to be allowed to do it their way - the same as the multitude of countries in Africa are evolving and struggling with their problems. For every "atrocity" that we hear about in the Middle East there are hundreds taking place in other third world countries.

I claim nothing. I share my views. If you have read to this point then I thank you for your interest and apologize for taking up three minutes of your life.

[Rue]

For Big Guy or anyone else to try claim they can speak of what it is like to live under the control of ISIL, let alone Al Quaida,the Iranian Regime the Syrian regime is a crock.

I note Big Guy would never leave the comfort of his cushy Canadian existence to go leave under ISIL.

Canada is what it is today because brave people fought to get us the very the standards Isil is in a war to destroy not just in the Middle East but worldwide.

Big Guy'sstale refrain that if he closes his eyes the boogy man will go away is spent.

Isil will not cease being a Boogy Man because Big Guy wants to turn his cheeks away from it.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Rue

[GostHacked]

The west turned it's cheek with Mission Accomplished and pulled out of a precarious Iraq which allowed ISIS and other terror groups to rise up.

[sharkman]

That was Obama that abandoned Iraq. I don't think he gets it yet why the ensuing trouble occurred.

[GostHacked]

That was Obama that abandoned Iraq. I don't think he gets it yet why the ensuing trouble occurred.

Mission Accomplished 'happened' under Bush. But I can't wait for everyone to bash the next POTUS for Obama's screw ups.

[Rue]

That's very interesting Ghost. Would you have people now believe that the reason terrorism exists is because the US won't do enough to get rid of it?Lol give me a break. You are the first to denounce the US being in Iraq and fighting terrorism now try suggest had th US stayed ISIL would not have happened?

Stop trying to flip and flop and exploit what ever negative proposition becomes convenient for you to toss out. Take a position and stick with it. The only position you have right now is to negate not propose anything.

To start with when Bush left office his regime did not get into bed with the Muslim Brotherhood and call Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Muslim Brotherhood legitimate peace partners.He never told Israel to unilaterally withdraw to 1967 borders and expose its people to immediate destruction from Hamas and Hezbollah. He never entered into an alliance with Iran. He did not turn on Egypt, Israel, Saudi Arabia. He didn't cower over Putin and he sure as hell managed China. In fact he inherited the North Korean fiasco from Clinton.

So now you want to blame ISIL and Obama's alliance with Muslim terrorists on him? You want to suggest he was afraid to suggest terrorists were using Islam as their rational as Obama now is?

You want to spin and try blame Iraq on Bush? Right he created this state not Britain. Its his fault. Blame him

You know what, save your spins. From the get go you blame anything wrong in the Middle East on the US and Israel. Its oh so simple.

Muslim extremism is only a problem because we westerners chose to challenge it. If we just mind our business its all fine, Who cares about Christians,Jews, Bahaiis, gays, Kurds, Berbers,Assyrians, Zoroastrians, Druze, Yazidi, not our problem.

Its all our fault for thinking we should challenge fundamental extremism.

Spare me the fake faux pas suggestion the US created the problem in Iraq.Obama made it worse for sure, with his failed Muslim Brotherhood agenda but don't try pin this on Bush. Bush made huge strategic mistakes, in particular not following the directions of his armed forces but that is a separate issue.

You want to contain terrorism-it has to be done on the ground with elite quick moving commandoes and that new approach is taking place as we speak.

Air bombings won't do it-commandos will. I wouldn't worry Ghost, you can still drive your SUV and go to MacDonald's.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Rue

[Je suis Omar]

Furthermore, I doubt that life under ISIS is better, especially given the ongoing conflict and bombing.

The ongoing crimes are fall on the shoulders of the originators of this massive series of war crimes. The liars of the USA, UK and their coalition band of war criminals.

[Je suis Omar]

That was Obama that abandoned Iraq. I don't think he gets it yet why the ensuing trouble occurred.

The "trouble" that apologists for war criminals and terrorists fail to realize is the destruction of a sovereign nation that was invaded, illegally, by nothing more than a band of the worst that makes the Nazis look like Boy Scouts.

At least most Germans had enough sense to stop expressing support for the Nazis.

[Big Guy]

It appears that ISIS has captured Ramadi and Palmyra. Now ISIS controls over half of Syria and a good chunk of Iraq. The USA is under pressure to send ground troops and get mired in there for another 10 years. There has been some talk about providing anti-tank and other more powerful weapons to the Kurds in the North but there is nothing from keeping them using these weapons for expanding their grip in the North and carve out part of Turkey to create their own country.

Look to me like the Caliphate of ISIL is already a reality. They have a government, military, lots of oil for financial stability, a governing infrastructure (including police forces and taxes) and social programs. The majority of the local Sunnis do not seem too upset with being governed by them rather than the Shiite government in Baghdad. It was reported by the American military that the ISIS forces attacking Ramadi were outnumbered 15 to 1. The Iraqi's jumped into their cars and disappeared leaving all kinds or heavy armaments behind for ISIS. The general was quoted, "The Iraqi forces were nor driven from Ramadi, they drove out of Ramadi."

Canada is still dropping bombs in places where it looks like bad guys are gathering but how they know who is who is a mystery to me.

We are being played like a fine fiddle.

Time for Canada to say goodbye and wait and see who ends up winning this civil war.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Big Guy

[bush_cheney2004]

At least most Germans had enough sense to stop expressing support for the Nazis.

Sure...they lost the war. Support for the British Empire continued...even in Canada.

[Big Guy]

"Air Strikes Kill Civilians In Iraq"

Is this a headline from 2003, 2005, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2013 or 2015?

Could be from any of those years. Yes, air strikes by the West continue in Iraq. The latest reports casualties of at least 70. That means that more civilians (oops sorry - collateral damage) are killed, more locals get upset with the West and more potential suicide bombers are created who will come back and bite us right in assets.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/06/dozens-die-air-strikes-isil-iraq-hawijah-150603141123218.html

So it has been 12 years and we still appear clueless.

Taking about slow learners.

We are being played like a fine fiddle.

[Rue]

Big Guy is selective. He will not play his "fine fiddle" when civilians die at the hands of Muslim terrorists each day,only if he thinks he can blame it on

the West.

Oh do tell, when has Big Guy come on the board and played his tune when ISIL each day kills civilians? Hmm? Does he play away over deaths by Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Quaida, the Taliban?

Right.

I know who his conductor is. The conductor only tells him to stand and play when its a certain tune with a distinct melody.Oh I get the conductor. Know him very well. He doesn't have an Anglo sounding name either. Abou get a new script for your fiddlers will yah.

[Big Guy]

It looks pretty definite that we are involved in a civil war between Shia and Sunni.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/06/sunni-sheiks-pledge-allegiance-isil-iraq-anbar-150604074642668.html

It appears more and more a fact that the Sunni populace sees ISIS as a liberator rather than an invader. The Sunni leaders in Iraq may not be too crazy about ISIS but prefer them over the leadership of Iraq. Does this mean that we can now drop bombs on those folks who we were just protecting by bombing their "enemies" (who are now their friends)? Perhaps there should be a decent waiting period between labelling a group as terrorists and fighting to protect them? It must take at least a week to change the targeting software in aircraft.

We are being played like a fine fiddle.

[Topaz]

In 2014 ISIS gain power over 2300 US armored Humvees , which they are using for suicide bombs and this NATO war, seems to be more than NATO thought it would be and the map on the link, just shows how much ISIS has gain control. Now, Obama want to put 450 US trainers in to train the Iraqi army, but it seems by all this training isn't doing much good and many in the US is calling for the President to get more troops on the ground from NATO countries. The US has already sent over 2 Billion on this term of fighting in Iraq and perhaps that why Canada won't say how much we have sent, bombing. http://www.businessinsider.com/isis-turning-us-humvees-into-iraqs-nightmare-2015-6

[Argus]

It looks pretty definite that we are involved in a civil war between Shia and Sunni

It appears more and more a fact that the Sunni populace sees ISIS as a liberator rather than an invader.

uh huhhh. Life is way better under these guys...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32831854

[GostHacked]

uh huhhh. Life is way better under these guys...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32831854

Saddam Hussein looks like a saint compared to these idiots. But that is what is to be expected from the failed War on Terror .. we now have more terror from war!

[Big Guy]

Looks like Sunni ISIS have won this civil war. The land that is now referred to as ISIL appears to be the largest country in the area. They have no air force but there is no indication that either Iraq or Syria have the ability to challenge them. The Sunni population seems to prefer them rather than those American (and Iranian) puppets in Baghdad or Assad of Syria. There are municipal government organizations on the ground, police forces, social services and infrastructure organization. They have shown that they can win and are now trying to show that they can govern.

Obama is sending another 500 "trainers" into the region and Canada keeps dropping bombs hoping that we hit more bad guys than good guys. I guess Obama is hoping to keep other countries from recognizing ISIL until he gets a chance to hand the USA over to the next guy (or gal). I assume that Harper is doing the same and I hope our next government gets us the heck out of there.

This civil war has a chance to stabilize if we accept the fact that the populace demands to be allowed to organize under cultural and religious lines rather than these phony boundaries that the West has decided to paint on a map.

Anyone else a little curious that here we are, at the cusp of an election and involved in a war, that none of the parties are stating their positions on our involvement in the Middle East?