Bill Maher Destroys The Liberal Utopian Vision of Islam

[Michael Hardner]

I don't think anyone is saying "people" are better than others. We're saying a system of government and roles religion plays in how a nation is governed is better than the other.

That's easier to accept than what I said.

"Draconian religion coupled with draconian government means less freedom for individuals." Hard to disagree there.

Also the main problem in these nations are poverty. The Arab world has some of the most wealth we see on this planet.

Well, sure but we're not talking about "the Arab world".

[Argus]

Let's look at this. I've pointed out, as Reza Aslan mentioned in the video I posted that Muslim states, namely Turkey and Indonesia, have had female heads of state. When you say "Muslims treat women badly," you completely ignore the fact that Turkey and Indonesia are more progressive than even the United States, who has never in its history had a female president,

What you are ignoring is that Turkey and Indonesia are Muslim countries which, for some time, moved away from the idea of being Muslim societies and tried to emulate the more secular West. Since Turkey's semi Islamist government took control they have been embracing Muslim values more and more, and encouraging an attitude towards women which has not exactly enhanced their rights.

"Turkey has full equality on paper, but there is an incredible resistance on the part of the government, including the women's minister to implement these reforms. Turkey is the country where women's employment is the lowest among OECD countries, the gender gap in education is not decreasing and the number of women in decision-making mechanisms are also decreasing," Ilkaracan said.

http://www.voanews.com/content/turkeys-murder-rate-of-women-skyrockets-117093538/170517.html

62% of Turkish men feel wife beating is okay.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/62-of-turkish-men-support-wife-beating/

[Argus]

Given this statement from a poster in this thread:

For example the following countries kill, or impose lengthy prison sentences, for blasphemy: Afghanistan, Bahrain, Iran, Mauritania, Oman, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi, Arabia, Algeria, Bangladesh, Egypt, Iraq, Kuwait, Libya, Malaysia, Maldives, Morocco, Somalia, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates.

How does one express the justified disgust without mentioning the religion involved?

How is that disgust "thinly veiled bigotry"?

Don't you understand? Those laws have nothing to do with them all being Muslim! That's just a coincidence!

[cybercoma]

62% of Turkish men feel wife beating is okay.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/62-of-turkish-men-support-wife-beating/

Sure. Let's talk about domestic violence and intimate partner violence. According to Statistics Canada (2010) nearly 1 in 4 violent crimes were domestic violence. Women are twice as likely to be victims. Dating violence is more prevalent than spousal violence and over half of IPV victims suffered physical injuries compared with 39% of victims of non IPV violence.

Do you care about domestic or intimate partner violence? Or do you just want to sit here and pretend that spousal abuse and intimate partner abuse is just a Muslim thing?

[cybercoma]

Don't you understand? Those laws have nothing to do with them all being Muslim! That's just a coincidence!

And North Korea probably has zero Muslims and imprisons or kills people for stupid reasons. Pinochet? Was he Muslim? Stalin? Pol Pot? World famous Muslims? How many people have the Lord's Resistance Army killed? Going to blame their killings on Islam too? How many Palestinian civilians have been indiscriminately killed by the IDF? The Israelis Muslim now too?

[Guest]

That you have to bring up North Korea, Stalin and Pol Pot kind of proves the point.

North Koreans? Bastards, start a thread.

Lord's Resistance Army? Bastards, start a thread.

Muslims who think the death penalty for blasphemy or apostasy is justified? Bastards. We have a thread.

Edited October 9, 2014 by bcsapper

[Michael Hardner]

Don't you understand? Those laws have nothing to do with them all being Muslim! That's just a coincidence!

It's neither a coincidence nor a causative factor.

[Guest]

You don't think that their being Muslim has anything to do with their views on blasphemy?

[eyeball]

Speaking pf blasphemy how do you feel about our being brothers-in-arms with people that behead, stone and torture their victims? And apparently we can look forward to adding a war-criminal who's gassed his own people.

Edited October 9, 2014 by eyeball

[Guest]

Hate it. How about you?

[Michael Hardner]

You don't think that their being Muslim has anything to do with their views on blasphemy?

? You replied to a post that answered the question.

[Guest]

I thought you must have made a mistake.

[Michael Hardner]

I thought you must have made a mistake.

You mean when I said it's neither causative nor random ? You think that that's a mistake ?

[Guest]

Not really, no.

As being Muslim has absolutely everything to do with their views on blasphemy, I knew you were actually being disingenuous. I just didn't want to be insulting.

I value peace and quiet.

[Michael Hardner]

As being Muslim has absolutely everything to do with their views on blasphemy,

It doesn't, though. There are lots of other factors, as evidenced by the poll shown earlier in the thread. The results vary 10X by country, for example.

[Guest]

We've established that not all Muslims are the same, and their views can vary. That is one of the main points brought up in all these arguments. I have yet to see an argument against that point.

Those Muslims who think blasphemy is a punishable crime do so due to their religious beliefs.

[Michael Hardner]

Those Muslims who think blasphemy is a punishable crime do so due to their religious beliefs.

That would follow for any religion, though, by definition. I doubt many atheists believe blasphemy should be punished. The assertion, though, that it has "everything" to do with which religion they follow is incorrect, since country seems to be a significant influencer.

[Guest]

I agree, Pakistani Muslims might be more inclined to insist on a stricter punishment for blasphemy than say, Moroccan Muslims. And some Muslims in Pakistan might be more inclined to leniency than other Muslims in Pakistan.

That said, they wouldn't be basing these decisions on whether they preferred Cricket or Football on a Saturday afternoon.

[Argus]

Do you care about domestic or intimate partner violence? Or do you just want to sit here and pretend that spousal abuse and intimate partner abuse is just a Muslim thing?

Not much is 'just a Muslim thing'. I mean, is there sexism in Canada? Sure. Is it anything like as bad as it is in Muslim countries? Not by a country mile. Do Canadian men beat their wives? On occasion. Would 62% of Canadian men defend the practice? Not a chance.

[Argus]

It doesn't, though. There are lots of other factors, as evidenced by the poll shown earlier in the thread. The results vary 10X by country, for example.

Sure there are lots of factors. The main other factor aside from being Muslim is outside influence. Thus Muslims in countries with heavy Christian influences tend to be less fanatic than those left by themselves.

That being said, being a Muslim is the primary factor.

[Michael Hardner]

Sure there are lots of factors.

Agreed.

That being said, being a Muslim is the primary factor.

I've already shown on this thread why that isn't so.

[cybercoma]

Not really, no.

As being Muslim has absolutely everything to do with their views on blasphemy, I knew you were actually being disingenuous. I just didn't want to be insulting.

I value peace and quiet.

That's funny because their views on blasphemy have a lot more in common with some Christians than some other Muslims. This is what I mean when you guys completely ignore the fact that there is as much variation within groups as there is between groups, especially when there's no central authority in Islam.

[cybercoma]

Not much is 'just a Muslim thing'. I mean, is there sexism in Canada? Sure. Is it anything like as bad as it is in Muslim countries? Not by a country mile. Do Canadian men beat their wives? On occasion. Would 62% of Canadian men defend the practice? Not a chance.

On occasion? According to Stats Canada some 50% of women are sexually assaulted or raped before they turn 24.

But then I guess that's not wives.

Is sexism as bad in Canada as in "Muslim countries"? Well, for the upteenth time, there's no such thing as Muslim Countries. Is sexism as bad in Canada as Saudi Arabia? Hell no. But Canada has only had a female Prime Minister as a result of Kim Campbell being appointed to the role, while Muslims Countries have elected female leaders. So there's that.

This is why you need to be more specific when you make these arguments. When you just say "Muslim Countries" as though they're all the same, you show that you either don't care about their differences or don't understand them.

Frankly, given your posting history on immigration, race, ethnicity, and culture, it's probably the former. You don't give a crap that there is no "Muslim Countries" as long as you get to stress your superiority.

[cybercoma]

Sure there are lots of factors. The main other factor aside from being Muslim is outside influence. Thus Muslims in countries with heavy Christian influences tend to be less fanatic than those left by themselves.

That being said, being a Muslim is the primary factor.

How about those countries with Christian influences like in Central Africa. They just butcher women's genitals in those countries. Is that your definition of less fanatic? Because I doubt that's what you mean.

[Guest]

That's funny because their views on blasphemy have a lot more in common with some Christians than some other Muslims. This is what I mean when you guys completely ignore the fact that there is as much variation within groups as there is between groups, especially when there's no central authority in Islam.

Don't ignore it at all. In fact, I, and others, go to great pains to make distinctions between groups. Only describing as barbaric and disgusting the behaviour of those groups who indulge in barbaric and disgusting behaviour.

To be even clearer, the only Muslims who disgust me are those whose religious beliefs encourage behaviour that you yourself find disgusting too.

Also, if you were to start a thread describing disgusting and barbaric behaviour by Christians, or Jews, or Rastafarians, etc, I certainly would join in. I'm equal opportunity disgusted. It's just that Muslims take the opportunity so much more often than the others. Currently.