Ferguson unrest

WestCoastRunner · August 23, 2014

I've been watching you get dismantled for a few days now, no need for me to pile on. I'll wait my turn.

Dismantled? hehe, I hope you are enjoying it!

On Guard for Thee · August 23, 2014

I hasten to add that this rant by Page does nothing to prove Wilson's guilt or innocence if it does come to an indictment. The tape would not be allowed in court I'm sure. But it gives you a little insight into things in the St' Louis PD if this creature still, and has, worn a badge for over 30 years.

Hal 9000 · August 23, 2014

Dismantled? hehe, I hope you are enjoying it!

I'm not! You're barely putting up a strong argument lately. You're getting beat, and simply tossing out cliches.

" I'm far too intelligent to do that."

" I need more intelligent conversation here."

There's that elitist arrogance again

WestCoastRunner · August 23, 2014

I'm not! You're barely putting up a strong argument lately. You're getting beat, and simply tossing out cliches.

" I'm far too intelligent to do that."

" I need more intelligent conversation here."

There's that elitist arrogance again

I'm really not sure what I'm getting beat against? If you don't like me and have issues with me, I'm cool. Let it go. I have.

On Guard for Thee · August 23, 2014

Dismantled? hehe, I hope you are enjoying it!

He'll be waiting a long time. Not sure if that's such a bad thing.

WestCoastRunner · August 23, 2014

He'll be waiting a long time. Not sure if that's such a bad thing.

Thank you. I have no problem with his issues.

On Guard for Thee · August 23, 2014

Thank you. I have no problem with his issues.

It's funny (not funny ha ha) that after having listened to the original press conference that the patholigist Baden gave after concluding his autopsy and hearing him quite clearly explain why, for simple and obvious reasons, he cannot determine which way Brown was facing when he got hit in his arm, i.e. forward with arms down or away with arms up, or a combination, that disagreeing with press reports that mis reported what he said makes one assumptive of the officers guilt. The folks who want Brown to be guilty want him facing or even rushing the cop and no other explanation will do. So who's rushing to conclusions?

WestCoastRunner · August 23, 2014

It's funny (not funny ha ha) that after having listened to the original press conference that the patholigist Baden gave after concluding his autopsy and hearing him quite clearly explain why, for simple and obvious reasons, he cannot determine which way Brown was facing when he got hit in his arm, i.e. forward with arms down or away with arms up, or a combination, that disagreeing with press reports that mis reported what he said makes one assumptive of the officers guilt. The folks who want Brown to be guilty want him facing or even rushing the cop and no other explanation will do. So who's rushing to conclusions?

Good point. There are folks here who want Brown found guilty and there are folks here who want wilson to face justice and there are folks here who want answers. And I hope that all of us want solutions that will prevent this from happening less frequently. And that may include better police training and more community involvement between police and citizens. And that applies to Canada as well.

On Guard for Thee · August 23, 2014

Good point. There are folks here who want Brown found guilty and there are folks here who want wilson to face justice and there are folks here who want answers. And I hope that all of us want solutions that will prevent this from happening less frequently. And that may include better police training and more community involvement between police and citizens. And that applies to Canada as well.

I've heard many a US soldier in various far flung places remark when they get home this time they will leave the military and get a job with their local police force. Easy transition it seems. Not sure that the training they have had is totally appropriate for that new job. Matter of fact, other than how to handle a gun, it's mostly not.

bush_cheney2004 · August 23, 2014

The police already get a lot more training than criminals. Work on that.....

waldo · August 23, 2014

police receiving training and police properly applying that training are two completely different things. Work on that.....

Hal 9000 · August 23, 2014

A question for anyone here;

Ok, so if people haven't made up their minds - that's great. Like me, I can see that everyone is at least leaning in a certain direction. there's lots of speculation, but little facts so...What "fact" would make you swing completely to the other side?

For me, If it became "fact" that Mike Brown took those 4 arm wounds with his back turned, I'd want this cop jailed for a good long time.

sharkman · August 23, 2014

Good point. There are folks here who want Brown found guilty and there are folks here who want wilson to face justice and there are folks here who want answers. And I hope that all of us want solutions that will prevent this from happening less frequently. And that may include better police training and more community involvement between police and citizens. And that applies to Canada as well.

Well there's far more to it than that. If Brown beat Wilson badly and then charged him, saying and thinking the cop wouldn't shoot, this case is about a criminal who forced a cop to defend his life. Let's remember Brown was 6'4" and weighed 292 lbs. We know he was capable of robbing when he felt he needed to. If Wilson has signs of injury and if witnesses saw Brown charge him( one cell phone recording contains a conversation where a witness details Wilson charging the cop. Is it factual?), then Wilson was guilty of stupid, dangerous and criminal behaviour that got him shot.

On the other hand, if most of the above did not happen, and an innocent Brown(though he still did rob a store just before had and had been smoking pot) was confronted by Wilson who shot him while he had his hands up, then we have a case of racist cop who should do jail time. In incidents like this it's becoming increasingly jaw dropping how a single incident can have such wildly differing accounts. I think the media is generally being irresponsible with stories like this. Their first priority is to get more viewers and it shows.

an undercurrent is that various visible minorities know they can scream, "police brutality" specifically when it isn't happening and get the cops to back off.(I'm obviously not talking about times when it does occur, but when it isn't and they simply want to get away with whatever criminal activity they are caught in) In these times, real injustice to society occurs, but you never see a reporter there taking down the fake brutality story to uncover abuse of justice by playing the racism card.

On Guard for Thee · August 23, 2014

A question for anyone here;

Ok, so if people haven't made up their minds - that's great. Like me, I can see that everyone is at least leaning in a certain direction. there's lots of speculation, but little facts so...What "fact" would make you swing completely to the other side?

For me, If it became "fact" that Mike Brown took those 4 arm wounds with his back turned, I'd want this cop jailed for a good long time.

Autopsies can't prove which way he was facing. It seems the best we can hope for is that maybe there is a cell phone video out there somewhere that hasn't been seen yet.

Smallc · August 23, 2014

You most certainly did.

I most certainly did not. I simply responded to someone irrelevant point. Someone can still be a danger no matter the cause and they must be dealt with in that way first.

sharkman · August 23, 2014

That strikes me as odd, that with the technology/science we have and the base of knowledge, they can't take a look at the bullet angle/paths through his arms, and then get an idea of the bullet trajectory if his arms had been up and another if his arms had been down. Then see which trajectory is closer to the stance of Wilson. Is this impossible?

Big Guy · August 23, 2014

After three autopsies, I wonder how much is left to be able to be properly investigated.

sharkman · August 23, 2014

Also, with gun shot residue, if Wilson's gun went off in the car while Brown was struggling with it, then there would be GSR on his arms.

cybercoma · August 23, 2014

That strikes me as odd, that with the technology/science we have and the base of knowledge, they can't take a look at the bullet angle/paths through his arms, and then get an idea of the bullet trajectory if his arms had been up and another if his arms had been down. Then see which trajectory is closer to the stance of Wilson. Is this impossible?

It doesn't matter either way. Police shouldn't be using lethal force against an unarmed aggressor. They're supposed to be professionals and should be acting like it. What kind of sick world do people think we should be living in when they justify murdering someone who's resisting arrest? I expect cops to be better than that. I expect more rights than that as a citizen too.

kimmy · August 23, 2014

Here's a link to the whole hour long rant if you really want to scare yourself. I can tell you that I went through a training session at a place I shall not name but that does train, and recurrently train, a LOT of police forces in the US. Not quite as nutso as this guy but it was a lot more military than it was civil IMO.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/officer-who-pushed-don-lemon-relieved-of-duty-after-racist-rant-emerges/

That's because he's a military guy. Page is a former Sergeant Major who has been deployed with the army for much of the past decade.

There's nothing directly to do with the Michael Brown shooting here.

In my opinion its only relevance here is as yet another illustration that the law enforcement field attracts bad people as well as good people. Like politics. Some people are attracted to politics because they want to make the city or the country a better place, and other people are attracted to politics because they want to line their pockets with public money. Similarly with law enforcement... some people join because they want to Protect And Serve, but others sign up because they're turned on by the idea of having authority, or AUTHORITAHHH.

-k

bush_cheney2004 · August 23, 2014

Police officers are trained to use incremental steps of force [use of Force Continuum] depending on the situation and threat to themselves or public safety. They are legally authorized to use deadly force when faced with the threat of serious bodily injury, and would be considered "unprofessional" for not doing so. They are not required to accept assaults or struggles for control of their firearms as part of the job.

The issue is not deadly force, which is clearly legal, but when it should and should not be used. If Wilson is charged and the case goes to trial, one of the main issues will be the officer's reasonable assessment of the threat, regardless of Brown's actual intentions.

Edited August 23, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

sharkman · August 23, 2014

It doesn't matter either way. Police shouldn't be using lethal force against an unarmed aggressor. They're supposed to be professionals and should be acting like it. What kind of sick world do people think we should be living in when they justify murdering someone who's resisting arrest? I expect cops to be better than that. I expect more rights than that as a citizen too.

A lot of things shouldn't happen. "Unarmed" aggressors get shot all the time. The police rarely do it. But if the Wilson version is true, then he only fired on Brown in an extreme circumstance. He had been beaten and dazed by Brown, who had just robbed a store. Then when he gets out of his car and tries to arrest Brown, Brown charges him. Wilson has a broken face and has a 292 lb man charging him, after beating him. I don't doubt that you'd not shoot, but some would say, if an idiot is so stupid so as to charge a wounded armed cop, then the result is his own stupid fault.

kimmy · August 23, 2014

I think that it is entirely plausible that there are situations in which Wilson may have been justified in shooting Brown. While people keep referring to him as "unarmed teenager Michael Brown", the fact is that he was a physically enormous individual who doesn't need to be armed to present a serious threat of physical harm. I don't yet have an opinion on whether Wilson was justified in shooting Brown.

My objection isn't to Wilson's actions, it's to what the police have done since. And to the pro-police cheerleading as well.

-k

Argus · August 23, 2014

Maybe start a new thread. These things are not related.

Only if you consider 'related' in the most narrow sense. But the killing of Brown brings up a number of issues concerning the training of police, what kind of monitoring they ought to have, what sort of non-lethal weapons they ought to be equipped with, and the overall discpline and aptitude of police for defusing situations, if possible. By , whichthe way, the average salary for a St. Louise police officer is $28,000. That might speak to the qality of applicants.