eyeball Posted August 22, 2014 Report Posted August 22, 2014 If you accept that that's the Hamas agenda - then why say there is "moral equivalency"? You're right, it's more appropriate to say amoral equivalency. There may be many nuances depending on your particular bias.....but don't lose track of the facts when innocents die. Hamas simply does not care about the deaths of innocents Did you run that notion by the Hamas leader who's wife and kid were just killed? Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Rue Posted August 22, 2014 Report Posted August 22, 2014 Did you run that notion by the Hamas leader who's wife and kid were just killed? What point is the above making? A 4 year old just died in Israel from a missile. Did you run your notion by his parents? What a pointless thing to state. You exploit the death of people to make what point? What Hamas gets a free ride from moral responsibility because one of its leader's families was hit? What world do you live in where death is only noticed by you if its a Hamas terrorist's family that dies? Where is your indignation when Hamas killed 18 people in cold blood for allegedly being Israel informants today or that 4 year olfd boy who died or any of the Palestinians who continue to die because of where Hamas deliberately chooses to engage its war from? Your selectivity is repulsive. Quote
Argus Posted August 23, 2014 Report Posted August 23, 2014 No nation that behaves the way Israel does will ever be left in peace. Being Jewish, you mean? Hamas has no admitted it DID, in fact, kidnap ad murder those three teenage boys. Remember them? That was what started the current round of violence. It called the operation 'heroic'. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 23, 2014 Report Posted August 23, 2014 There are those who feel that Israel was defending itself when it invaded Gaza and others who support the Palestinian argument of virtual imprisonment, attempted genocide and taking of their land. Gee, thanks for summing that up. Very brave of you. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted August 23, 2014 Report Posted August 23, 2014 Being Jewish, you mean? No I dont mean anything like that at all. No matter what the predominant ethnicity or religion in Israel was they would be in the same boat. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
eyeball Posted August 23, 2014 Report Posted August 23, 2014 What point is the above making? What a pointless thing to state. Actually it's a question Rue not a statement. A 4 year old just died in Israel from a missile. I'm just as certain this poor kid's parents are every bit as devastated as any who lose a child to a war. Aren't you? Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Big Guy Posted August 23, 2014 Report Posted August 23, 2014 ... I'm just as certain this poor kid's parents are every bit as devastated as any who lose a child to a war. Aren't you? I believe that to be one of the challenges in this conflict. There are people (and posters on this board) who actually believe that the pain and grief of the parents of a 4 year old Israeli killed by Hamas is somehow greater than that of a 4 year old Palestinian killed by Israeli bombs. Once you begin to dehumanize a population or make it somehow inferior or less important than another, you begin to rationalize indiscriminate killing, ethnic cleansing and a final solution becomes acceptable. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Keepitsimple Posted August 23, 2014 Author Report Posted August 23, 2014 You're right, it's more appropriate to say amoral equivalency. Did you run that notion by the Hamas leader who's wife and kid were just killed? Think again - and I refer to the Hamas Charter. They weren't killed - they were martyred - and there is no greater honour. That's the mindset and ideology of Hamas and their ilk. Any attempt at moral equivalence is severely misplaced. As I said, Hamas simply doesn't care who gets killed - they invite it - especially women and children....because they are simply pawns in their PR war and steps towards their Charter's goals - no matter how long it takes....the elimination of the State of Israel and the eradication of all Jews. Quote Back to Basics
Shady Posted August 23, 2014 Report Posted August 23, 2014 Once you begin to dehumanize a population or make it somehow inferior or less important than another, you begin to rationalize indiscriminate killing, ethnic cleansing and a final solution becomes acceptable.Perfect description of Hamas! Quote
Argus Posted August 23, 2014 Report Posted August 23, 2014 No I dont mean anything like that at all. No matter what the predominant ethnicity or religion in Israel was they would be in the same boat. Not if they were Muslim... Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted August 23, 2014 Report Posted August 23, 2014 Hamas simply doesn't care who gets killed - they invite it - especially women and children....because they are simply pawns in their PR war and steps towards their Charter's goals C'mon, even the Shiniest Beacons on Earth take advantage of galvanizing events - it happens all the time. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Rue Posted August 23, 2014 Report Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) Hamas without any trials just shot 18 Palestinians dead claiming they were 18 collaborators of Israel. This the same organization that at the same timeas these cold blooded murders claims it should not be compared to ISIS and claims it wants to join the International Criminal Court. This an organization that as we speak regularly engages in 19 international war crimes stating it now wants to be an International Criminal Court member. As we speak Hamas is openly beating its civilians when they flee their homes to avoid death. As we speak it sent 100 rockets into Israel and stated, it will not stop until the embargo is lifted so as it stated it can bring in more weapons. Hamas stated, it has the right to restock itself with rockets and needs the embargo lifted for that. It doesn't even hide that. It shoots at the loading stations where food is being shipped from Israel into Gaza. It shoots at Israeli medical personnel trying to help Palestinians flee across the border for medical help. Hamas violated is temporary truces with Israel eleven times. Hamas is at war because Egypt has cut off its ability to get weapons from Hezbollah and Iran How many times did we read the whining anti Israel regulars on this forum claiming Israel was so cruel it would not allow cement into Gaza, In fact the cement was coming in while the pro Hamas whiners complained cement was not coming in. Did it go to build roads, schools, hospitals? Of course not, just tunnels. Palestinians have been starving for years as their food and badly needed supplies required to build them home, schools and hospitals have been taken away by Hamas. Just today an apartment tower came down in Gaza. Hamas was all over the news claiming 44 families were displaced.Bull sheeyit, absolute bull sheeyit bought hook line and sinker by the press. In fact Hamas admitted to its own people once again one of its operations headquarters was taken out. This is a war not some game of Israel killing civilians. People quick to point out what Israel should not do never state what it should do to protect its people. 100 rockets last night in less than 4 hours came into Israel. Do you understand how it paralyses the country? What you think its a joke...a minor inconvenience to ignore? Israel has to defend itself. What does Hamas say after the 4 year old boy dies-well its leader says-its not their fault, they really mean to kill soldiers but they don't aim well. This is the contemptable cowardly comment they give out. This coming from an organization whose television station and tv shows and charter calls for the killing of children...whose charter calls for a universal Muslim caliphate that starts with ending Israel, killing off the world' Jews, then converting everyone else to Islam or killing them. Go on ask the people of Syria, the people of Lebanon, the Kurds, the Yazidi,the Nigerians, the southern Sudanese,the people of Iran what it means when you question. Go on. Talk to me about the moral code of the Boca Raton, the Muslim Brotherhood, ISIS, Hezbollah, Iran. They not only wage war against the world but their own people. Ask Amidyya Muslims what it means to be a Muslim and be targeted by Sunnis. Tell me how the Taliban in Afghanistan who claim to be good Muslims justify their pedophilia and daily open rape of young boys as recreation. Please tell me about the Muslim Brotherhood and its mission statement and what it stands for and how much of a tolerant man Erdogan is in Turkey. This is a man who calls Israel a terrorist state, Hamas a non terrorist organization and openly along with the CIA trained and funded ISIS. Ah yes the Muslim Brotherhood who according to Obama were reasonable principled people with a bold vision for democracy. Yes you saw it, Erdogan in Turkey beating his own citizens to a pulp and Morsi leader of Egypt inciting his people to massacre Coptic Christians. Yes the Muslim Brotherhood that incited and carried out the massacre of Christians in Southern Sudan,, Bary Obama you told us...they were good people... hey they were great allies... they got rid of Ghaddafi, oops until they then turned on the US Ambassador and sodomized him to death in public ripping his anal cavity out with a broom stick and throwing it in the air along with pulling his liver and heart out for all to see in a public display of mutilation calling out he was a gay infidel. Hamas, ISIS and the Muslim Brotherhood have no moral code. They have a belief code. They do not have a concept of morality. Their concept of belief comes from blind obedience. Right is what one is told. This is about a way of life where life is seen as expendable if its not a Muslim life and not just a Muslim life, a particular Muslim way of life. Of course the killing of ANY civilian is a sin. Unlike Eyeball and the usual others on this forum I think the death of Palestinians as much as it is a sin is unavoidable at the moment and pray that Hamas is crushed so they can be free. Israel repeatedly warned Obama do not get in bed with Morsi and Erdogan. So did Saudi Arabia and the UAE the US's othr major allies. Well no not Obama. There he went to Cairo, sucked Morsi's butt, signalled the Arab world he was Muslim Brotherhood and Putin just played him like the fool he was. Iran? Well just yesterday Iran once again refused to let the UN inspect its nuclear stations. Gee imagine that. They are good people too. My comments are directed at the Muslim extremists controlling the people of these nations and those persons who support their extremist beliefs. I believe there are progressive Muslims but until they find the strength to openly challenge their countries' fanatical religious beliefs and demand changes, this shall continue. I support progressive Muslims who reject Hamas and all Muslim extremism just as I reject Jewish religious and Christian religious extremism, We in the West openly condemn the KKK, the Kache Party, any organization claiming its religion makes its extremism acceptable. Don't ask me to look the other way with Hamas, ISIS,the Muslim Brotherhood. They are no different. They are extremist hate mongers. I condemn the Kache Party in Israel no different than I do Hamas or Hezbollah. Its the same crap. This constant apologizing and making excuses for Hamas is a crock. What it takes a beheading on t.v. to get anyone aware of what Muslim extremism is about? Gosh I am surprised the usual Hamas apologists are not condoning the killing of those 18 collaborators in cold blood. Edited August 23, 2014 by Rue Quote
Big Guy Posted August 24, 2014 Report Posted August 24, 2014 Hamas without any trials just shot 18 Palestinians dead ... ... Gosh I am surprised the usual Hamas apologists are not condoning the killing of those 18 collaborators in cold blood. Looks to me like there is a war going on there with bullets flying and people dying. I would assume that in a war, those who help the other side are called traitors and in most countries their punishment is death. As to beheading, I believe that France used that as a method of execution until the 1970's. I have mentioned before that I do not believe in parsing a presentation during a reply. Why is it when anybody suggests (objectively) that it takes two to have a war. That there are arguments about how Israel has treated the Palestinians over the years. That the idea of killing of over a thousand innocent women and children and excusing them as "collateral damage" is not acceptable to those who hold life as a precious commodity. Certainly, Hamas sends rockets and has killed a few innocent Israeli civilians (I believe that it is about 30 since 2001) and that act is as horrendous and unacceptable as the Palestinian deaths. I understand that Rue is passionate in what he/she believes about that conflict and spends lots of time trying to convince others of his evaluation of that conflict. Good for him/her! But to dismiss those who disagree with the view as anti-Semitic or Hamas apologists is as silly as calling those who agree with that view as Nazi's or Zionists. While I do appreciate the passion of conviction, I still maintain that both sides share a immoral equivalency by rationalizing the taking of human life. Both sides support the theory that the end justifies the means – and both disagree as to the means the other uses, to justify their ends. I do not believe in that theory because it eventually leads to slaughter that we see in the Middle East. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
eyeball Posted August 24, 2014 Report Posted August 24, 2014 "Hamas without any trials just shot 18 Palestinians dead claiming they were 18 collaborators of Israel." Sounds like one godawful organization alright. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Keepitsimple Posted August 24, 2014 Author Report Posted August 24, 2014 Looks to me like there is a war going on there with bullets flying and people dying. I would assume that in a war, those who help the other side are called traitors and in most countries their punishment is death. As to beheading, I believe that France used that as a method of execution until the 1970's. I have mentioned before that I do not believe in parsing a presentation during a reply. Why is it when anybody suggests (objectively) that it takes two to have a war. That there are arguments about how Israel has treated the Palestinians over the years. That the idea of killing of over a thousand innocent women and children and excusing them as "collateral damage" is not acceptable to those who hold life as a precious commodity. Certainly, Hamas sends rockets and has killed a few innocent Israeli civilians (I believe that it is about 30 since 2001) and that act is as horrendous and unacceptable as the Palestinian deaths. I understand that Rue is passionate in what he/she believes about that conflict and spends lots of time trying to convince others of his evaluation of that conflict. Good for him/her! But to dismiss those who disagree with the view as anti-Semitic or Hamas apologists is as silly as calling those who agree with that view as Nazi's or Zionists. While I do appreciate the passion of conviction, I still maintain that both sides share a immoral equivalency by rationalizing the taking of human life. Both sides support the theory that the end justifies the means – and both disagree as to the means the other uses, to justify their ends. I do not believe in that theory because it eventually leads to slaughter that we see in the Middle East. When first the PLO - then Hamas are sworn to the elimination of Israel (the PLO has since moderated its position) and Hamas wants to murder all Jews.......can you please suggest what Israel should do when Hamas continually showers Israel with hundreds of rockets? Please give us your thoughts of what they should do? Quote Back to Basics
GostHacked Posted August 24, 2014 Report Posted August 24, 2014 Not if they were Muslim... Yeah because there is no division in Islam right? Oh wait there is.... Quote
Big Guy Posted August 24, 2014 Report Posted August 24, 2014 When first the PLO - then Hamas are sworn to the elimination of Israel (the PLO has since moderated its position) and Hamas wants to murder all Jews.......can you please suggest what Israel should do when Hamas continually showers Israel with hundreds of rockets? Please give us your thoughts of what they should do? If I had any influence 30 years ago and someone could have asked me then I would have answered. The current situation in that conflict is the evolution of bad decisions made by the different governments of Israel and the Palestinians. They now appear to be in a strangle hold of each other because of those decisions. My point is the immoral equivalency of both organizations at this time. They got themselves into that position by choice, by the various decisions made over the years by their governments, and will have to resolve them. As I have mentioned in the past, the solution can range from major compromises on both sides to total annihilation by one side of the other. Hamas currently does not have the ability to annihilate Israel but Israel does have the might to annihilate Gaza. Israel has already shown that it is acceptable for them to kill 2,000 civilians to attain their ends. What about 200,000 or even 2,000,000 (population of Gaza before this latest invasion was 1.816 million). Once you go down the road that "the end justifies the means" then it is only the "means" becomes negotiable. There is no moral high ground in this battle. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Argus Posted August 24, 2014 Report Posted August 24, 2014 Looks to me like there is a war going on there with bullets flying and people dying. Wow. Observant. Why is it when anybody suggests (objectively) that it takes two to have a war. It doesn't take two to have a war, unless you mean aggressor and victim. What did Poland do to provoke Germany? What did Belgium do? Suggesting both sides are equally guilty because both sides are fighting is morally and intellectually bankrupt. Of course, it does have the advantage, to some, of never having to occupy their brains with any serious thinking. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Keepitsimple Posted August 24, 2014 Author Report Posted August 24, 2014 Hamas currently does not have the ability to annihilate Israel but Israel does have the might to annihilate Gaza. Israel has already shown that it is acceptable for them to kill 2,000 civilians to attain their ends. What about 200,000 or even 2,000,000 (population of Gaza before this latest invasion was 1.816 million). Once you go down the road that "the end justifies the means" then it is only the "means" becomes negotiable. There is no moral high ground in this battle. Your argument is incoherent and disingenuous. Israel has always had the means to annihilate GAZA and have chosen not to. It is simply not in the DNA of modern Western culture to commit genocide - and especially Israel - who know all too well the evils of genocide. Hamas on the other hand would annihilate Israel if they were given the chance - as sworn to in their Charter. Hamas has chosen to "go down that road" that you stated. Israel has not - and will not. As I've said repeatedly - the problem is not with Palestinians - it's with Hamas. But you will never acknowledge that. Quote Back to Basics
Big Guy Posted August 25, 2014 Report Posted August 25, 2014 ... As I've said repeatedly - the problem is not with Palestinians - it's with Hamas. But you will never acknowledge that. I fully acknowledge that you fervently believe what you post. I also fully acknowledge that you have the right to post it. Finally. I do understand your position and thank you for sharing it. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
PIK Posted August 26, 2014 Report Posted August 26, 2014 I would like to see one side do something to shame the other side into peace. Like Israel quit the attacks when some rockets come in, or hamas change their ways and accepts Israel's right to exist, and even hand over some weapons. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
eyeball Posted August 26, 2014 Report Posted August 26, 2014 I would like to see one side do something to shame the other side into peace. Like Israel quit the attacks when some rockets come in, or hamas change their ways and accepts Israel's right to exist, and even hand over some weapons. Holy shit, a rightie who can talk sense for a change. What happened, did you have a toke or something? Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Rue Posted August 26, 2014 Report Posted August 26, 2014 PIK in the past Israel has not responded to incoming rocket attacks. In fact it has stayed silent in the past and tried to. Not all rocket attacks resulted in responses. On this one the sheer volume of rockets and the kidnappings and the agenda on the West Bank by Hamas to engage in violence on the West Bank made that impossible. If the only issue was a few rockets there would have been no response. Unfortunately Israel is not dealing with an adversary that can be shamed or reasoned with for that matter. To understand Hamas is to understand they see silence as a sign of weakness. That is the cold hard reality. Absence with a response fuels their behaviour. Its unfortunately a game of brinksmanship and attrition no doubt about it. To get a truce both sides need a way to save face. Israel is playing a waiting game. What seems to you like an unleashed response is not. If it wanted to flatten Gaza and move Palestinians out and demilitarize the area it would have done so. What its doing is showing Hamas its willing to wait it out and day by day go tit for tat. Its like watching two sides refusing to blink. I don't expect you to get it. This is a type of thought process of mentality that is not in any way akin to anything Western. Shame is not a concept in the cognitive processing of Hamas. It is in Israel though. So what you will see is shame in Israel expressed through its media and social critics questioning Israeli state policy. On the other side any show of shame by Palestinians would be seen as weakness, collaboration for Israel and gets people killed. Hamas as we speak beats its citizens who refuse to re-enter hot zones or who question Hamas using their homes. Shame is not something Hamas would perceive. This is an organization deliberately placing its people in harm's way and sees it as a religious duty. Shame to Hamas is not engaging in terror. Quote
Rue Posted August 26, 2014 Report Posted August 26, 2014 (edited) I fully acknowledge that you fervently believe what you post. I also fully acknowledge that you have the right to post it. Finally. I do understand your position and thank you for sharing it. You don't just like you do not understand my positions but you are genuinely being polite. I know that was not lip service. Big Guy my challenges are directed at specific people and I am very clear when and why I criticize them. Criticizing Israeli state policies does not make someone an anti-semite. It becomes anti-semitic when the pretext of criticizing Israeli state policies is used to challenge the right of Jews to exist as a collective, denigrates all Israelis for choosing to be a Jewish collective, exploiting the holocaust and engaging in holocaust inversion and insulting and attacking not just Israelis but Jews. Criticizing Israeli state policies is fair game. Attacking Israelis for being Israelis or Jews is not. Accusing any Jew Israeli or otherwise of being a Nazi is not fair game. Edited August 26, 2014 by Rue Quote
PIK Posted August 27, 2014 Report Posted August 27, 2014 PIK in the past Israel has not responded to incoming rocket attacks. In fact it has stayed silent in the past and tried to. Not all rocket attacks resulted in responses. On this one the sheer volume of rockets and the kidnappings and the agenda on the West Bank by Hamas to engage in violence on the West Bank made that impossible. If the only issue was a few rockets there would have been no response. Unfortunately Israel is not dealing with an adversary that can be shamed or reasoned with for that matter. To understand Hamas is to understand they see silence as a sign of weakness. That is the cold hard reality. Absence with a response fuels their behaviour. Its unfortunately a game of brinksmanship and attrition no doubt about it. To get a truce both sides need a way to save face. Israel is playing a waiting game. What seems to you like an unleashed response is not. If it wanted to flatten Gaza and move Palestinians out and demilitarize the area it would have done so. What its doing is showing Hamas its willing to wait it out and day by day go tit for tat. Its like watching two sides refusing to blink. I don't expect you to get it. This is a type of thought process of mentality that is not in any way akin to anything Western. Shame is not a concept in the cognitive processing of Hamas. It is in Israel though. So what you will see is shame in Israel expressed through its media and social critics questioning Israeli state policy. On the other side any show of shame by Palestinians would be seen as weakness, collaboration for Israel and gets people killed. Hamas as we speak beats its citizens who refuse to re-enter hot zones or who question Hamas using their homes. Shame is not something Hamas would perceive. This is an organization deliberately placing its people in harm's way and sees it as a religious duty. Shame to Hamas is not engaging in terror. Holy shit, a rightie who can talk sense for a change. What happened, did you have a toke or something?Take deep breaths, you will be OK. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
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