Malaysian Airliner Reportedly Shot Down in east Ukraine

[Signals.Cpl]

If it turns out to be Russians instead of the Russian-backed rebels in Ukraine expect the Russians cowardly back away and deny. Wouldn't be the first time.

Why would Russia have a reason to shoot down this aircraft? The most likely scenario is a separatist group shot down the plane thinking it is a Ukrainian military plane. They were talking about it on the news that the Separatists claimed to have the BUK system and then released a statement that they had shot down a Ukrainian plane which was backed up by Russian media only to be deleted once it became apparent that the plane was a civilian aircraft and the separatists also deleted their claims of having captured a BUK system.

What does that say to me? It says the "separatists" jumped the gun without having the ability to distinguish between military and civilian aircraft and once they learned they shot down a civilian aircraft the back peddling started.

[Big Guy]

^{We know that Ukraine certainly has the technology to shoot down an airplane;}

^{“On October 4, 2001, 64 Siberia Airlines passengers and 12 crew members onboard a Soviet-made Tupolev Tu-154 en route from Novosibirsk to Tel Aviv were killed when the plane was shot down over the Black Sea by a Ukrainian missile.}

^{It took a while for Ukraine to admit that was what had happened, but after pressure from Russian investigators, Ukraine's then-president, Leonid Kuchma, accepted that the Ukrainian military was at fault. The day of the shoot-down, the Ukrainian military was conducting a massive military exercise which involved shooting 23 missiles at drones. "Experts say that the radar-guided S-200, among the farthest-flying and most capable antiaircraft missile in the arsenal of former Soviet nations, simply locked onto the Russian airliner after it raced past the destroyed drone some 20 miles off the Crimean coast," the New York Times' Michael Wines reported.}

^{Kuchma accepted the resignation of his Minister of Defense, Oleksandr Kuzmuk, following the admission that the military was at fault. From 2003 to 2005, Ukraine paid $15.6 million to families of victims following a deal with the government of Israel.”}

[Black Dog]

^{We know that Ukraine certainly has the technology to shoot down an airplane;}

And shockingly, so do the Russians. And so, apparently, so do the rebels.

[Rue]

Big Guy you are comparing a military exercise where accidents can happen to an isolated shoot down so your comparison makes no sense to me.

Ukraine was not involved in military exercises so to accuse it of shooting down a passenger craft would necessarily mean they did it deliberately.

Russian seperatists shot down that plane and you can be sure Putin already told Obama that because he was on the phone an hour after the jet went down.

Russian seperatists shot down an aircraft thinking it was a Ukrainian miliary craft. Its not rocket science.

It would be absurd to suggest Ukranians would shoot down a plane deliberately then let the black box go to Russia. They would knw a black box would be recovered by Russian seperatists on the ground before they could get there.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Rue

[Signals.Cpl]

^{We know that Ukraine certainly has the technology to shoot down an airplane;}

^{“On October 4, 2001, 64 Siberia Airlines passengers and 12 crew members onboard a Soviet-made Tupolev Tu-154 en route from Novosibirsk to Tel Aviv were killed when the plane was shot down over the Black Sea by a Ukrainian missile.}

^{It took a while for Ukraine to admit that was what had happened, but after pressure from Russian investigators, Ukraine's then-president, Leonid Kuchma, accepted that the Ukrainian military was at fault. The day of the shoot-down, the Ukrainian military was conducting a massive military exercise which involved shooting 23 missiles at drones. "Experts say that the radar-guided S-200, among the farthest-flying and most capable antiaircraft missile in the arsenal of former Soviet nations, simply locked onto the Russian airliner after it raced past the destroyed drone some 20 miles off the Crimean coast," the New York Times' Michael Wines reported.}

^{Kuchma accepted the resignation of his Minister of Defense, Oleksandr Kuzmuk, following the admission that the military was at fault. From 2003 to 2005, Ukraine paid $15.6 million to families of victims following a deal with the government of Israel.”}

Correct me if I'm wrong but Ukraine has not claimed they don't have the capability, they have stated they didn't have the units there because the separatists have no airforce. The question would be wether the system came from Russia or it was captured from Ukraine.

[-TSS-]

Until now the US has maintained a low profile in the Ukraine-conflict and understandably so as they have nothing to gain or win from it but plenty to lose.

However, as there were so many US-citizens among the victims of the downed plane the US has no alternative but to take a more active role in the efforts to solve the conflict and stop it from escalating further.

[Argus]

We know that Ukraine certainly has the technology to shoot down an airplane;[/size][/sup]

We also know the rebels have no aircraft, so the Ukrainian government would have no reason to track and fire upon a high altitude jet heading towards Russia. We also know the missile track was seen by satellite as coming from within the Russian occupied zone.

[Argus]

Until now the US has maintained a low profile in the Ukraine-conflict and understandably so as they have nothing to gain or win from it but plenty to lose.

However, as there were so many US-citizens among the victims of the downed plane the US has no alternative but to take a more active role in the efforts to solve the conflict and stop it from escalating further.

As far as I'm aware there were approximately NO Us citizens among the victims.

[Signals.Cpl]

Until now the US has maintained a low profile in the Ukraine-conflict and understandably so as they have nothing to gain or win from it but plenty to lose.

However, as there were so many US-citizens among the victims of the downed plane the US has no alternative but to take a more active role in the efforts to solve the conflict and stop it from escalating further.

There is one American as far as I know. The US is getting involved because someone shot down the aircraft and they may be in a position to identify said group.

[-TSS-]

Youre right. The first news put the victim-toll of the US-citizens higher but apparently there was only one.

[Big Guy]

I back nobody in this civil war/rebellion/ insurgency or whatever but do wonder what really has been going on. Nobody wants to take credit for this last event and are busy trying to point fingers at somebody else. The US position seems to be that some group of rag-tag rebels stole a missile system. Then somehow learned to locate an airplane flying at 30,000 ft., arm the missile system, target the moving airplane, shoot the missile and make a direct hit at 30,000 ft. - But they do not have the firepower, ability, expertise or weapons to hold on to some territory that Kiev recently took back from them.

I think we are being fed a lot of crap from everybody with a seat at that game. I do not believe anything coming in from that region.

[-TSS-]

Not meaning to be a doom-mongerer but this incident could be the 2014-equivalent of Sarayevo.

[Derek 2.0]

It isn't that hard to figure out what happened... the hardest part about this is figuring out whether it was Russia or Ukraine rebels, or a mix....?

Exactly, both the Russians and Ukrainians operated the BUK system, and would have experienced personal in it’s operation, and it’s not unreasonable to assume (since both Russia and Ukraine have mandatory national service) that both groups of rebels have personal with former military service.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Derek 2.0

[Boges]

Not meaning to be a doom-mongerer but this incident could be the 2014-equivalent of Sarayevo.

Wait what?

Franz Ferdinand? Ukraine isn't part of NATO. The west isn't obliged to step in. Even so who's got Russia's back here?

This isn't the first time Russia has done something like this.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Boges

[Derek 2.0]

Wait what?

Franz Ferdinand? Ukraine isn't part of NATO. The west isn't obliged to step in. Even so who's got Russia's back here?

Thus isn't the first time Russia has done something like this.

That’s assuming the Russians did it……..of course there has also been this report:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-source-claims-putin-was-intended-target-in-plane-disaster/503725.html

The source claimed that Putin's plane had intersected the Malaysian plane's flight path at 10,000 meters as the latter traveled from Amsterdam toward Kuala Lumpur.

"The presidential aircraft was there at 16:21 Moscow time, the Malaysian one at 15:44," the source told Interfax.

Putin uses an Ilyushin Il-96-300 wide-body airliner, the size and proportions of which are similar to those of the downed Boeing 777.

"As for the coloring, at a remote distance they are almost identical," the source said.

A separate source told Gazeta.ru news portal, however, that Putin had avoided Ukrainian airspace in light of the conflict.

Rosaviatsia head Alexander Naradko told Interfax that the agency does not comment on or disclose the flight paths taken by the presidential plane.

Various conflicting reports obviously, and I hardly trust Russian state-owned media, but if this was true, it would certainly change the narrative.

[Shady]

The US position seems to be that some group of rag-tag rebels stole a missile system.

No, it wasn't stolen, it was given to them, by Russia. No rag-tag rebels stole anything. And many of these rag-tag rebels are trained by Russian special forces. Why is it that Russia can do no wrong at all in your eyes?

[Derek 2.0]

No, it wasn't stolen, it was given to them, by Russia.

Is there any proof to indicate that?

[Boges]

Thats assuming the Russians did it..of course there has also been this report:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-source-claims-putin-was-intended-target-in-plane-disaster/503725.html

Various conflicting reports obviously, and I hardly trust Russian state-owned media, but if this was true, it would certainly change the narrative.

You'd think if this was an attempted assassination (a la Admiral Yamamoto) they'd be sure who they were shooting down and leave it to a SAM.

[Shady]

Is there any proof to indicate that?

Tons. Rebels have been using Russian AA systems to shoot down Ukranian transport planes for several weeks now. With good success.

[Shady]

You'd think if this was an attempted assassination (a la Admiral Yamamoto) they'd be sure who they were shooting down and leave it to a SAM.

They'd have to be pretty stupid to think Vladimir Putin travels in commercial Malaysian airline planes.

[Wilber]

And what would Ukraine stand to gain from shooting down Putin's aircraft other than get itself invaded?

[WestCoastRunner]

Is there any proof to indicate that?

There are plenty of observations done on the available evidence by security analysts from the U.S., Germany, the U.K. etc to come to the most plausible agreement that this plane was taken down by rebels supplied with missiles from the Russians.

What makes this all the more tragic are the bodies that remain there with no one seeming to be in charge. I pity the families of these victims.

[Derek 2.0]

You'd think if this was an attempted assassination (a la Admiral Yamamoto) they'd be sure who they were shooting down and leave it to a SAM.

That’s predicated on the Ukrainians attempting to kill Putin.

[Derek 2.0]

Tons. Rebels have been using Russian AA systems to shoot down Ukranian transport planes for several weeks now. With good success.

That doesn't prove rebels shot down this aircraft.

[Boges]

If you're looking for a parallel to global conflict. I see it in the fact the western powers allowed Putin to annex part of Ukraine just like they let Hitler annex part of Czechoslovakia in the 30's.

At what point is this rebel land grab too much? Do they have to invade Kiev before some says enough?