kidnapped Israeli teens bodies found

[Hudson Jones]

Doing nothing vertainly hasn't made them stop.

The rockets were a retaliation to a retaliation to a retaliatio... Hamas didn't get up one morning and say, it's a good day to fire rockets! Your short term memory and inability to dig beyond the superficial information relayed to you, which you will accept and use without question damages your credibility.

Israel should have learned by now that these one-sided disproportionate attacks have not and will not help their cause. They will continue to draw international public opinion against them.

[On Guard for Thee]

Hamas certainly has not accepted Israel as a state and they keep firing those rockets. When will they ever learn as the old song goes.

[Big Guy]

The "score" to this date is Israeli citizens killed - 0. Palestinian citizens killed - 100. So Israel is winning the killing war by 100 to 0.

I understand that in the ME, families are large and extended. Also, the culture dictates that every killing must be avenged by the family. Assuming that the typical extended family is large then about 10 people could be considered close family.

Therefore , new score;

Israeli dead is 0. Potential suicide bombers = dead times 10 = 0 times 10 = 0 potential suicide bombers.

Palestinian dead is 100. Potential suicide bombers = dead times 10 = 100 times 10 = 1,000 potential suicide bombers.

Is Israel winning this war?

[Guest]

I guess that's why they need the big wall.

[jbg]

No one would accept the "offered states" by Israel under the conditions that they have been offered.

Are you saying Israel should have accepted states as neighbors that would inevitably be armed to the teeth?

That said, the Palestinians have not only accepted Israel within the internationally recognized borders but they have also offered several plans to the Israelis which they have rejected. There have been plans by the Arab League, by GWB and several other offers, but Israel has refused all of them. Why? Because Israel wants to continue what it is doing, which is expansionism and the suppression of the Palestinians.

Do any of those plans involve recognizing Israel as a Jewish state and providing guarantees of peace? Not just a houdna?

[bush_cheney2004]

...Israel should have learned by now that these one-sided disproportionate attacks have not and will not help their cause. They will continue to draw international public opinion against them.

International public opinion is no match for U.S. military and economic aid. Israel will do whatever is necessary regardless of international public opinion.

[marcus]

Are you saying Israel should have accepted states as neighbors that would inevitably be armed to the teeth?

Do any of those plans involve recognizing Israel as a Jewish state and providing guarantees of peace? Not just a houdna?

Yes. All of the plans would recognize Israel as a state (not "Jewish State") as it is not required by international law. There would also be peace and normalization of relations. It's in the Peace Initiative. Check out what the leaders of all Western countries have said about the peace plan. It's only Israel that does not accept the plan or even try to negotiate based on the plan. This is another indication that Israel is not interested in resolving this issue and would rather see the cycle continue. This will allow them to continue their illegal expansion and annexation of Palestinian land.

[marcus]

International public opinion is no match for U.S. military and economic aid.

The apartheid South African government once enjoyed military and economic aid. They had a great relationship with U.S., U.K. and Israel who was one of their best friends. Look what happened to them.

The current situation is not going to work. More and more of the Jewish population, mostly the ones living outside of Israel are speaking out against Israel. Something you didn't see in the past. Pressure on Israel is coming from every angle. Economically, they are also losing out. Just last week, 12 more EU countries put out warnings against doing deals with Israeli companies who are in the settlements.

[eyeball]

I came to the conclusion a while ago that the status quo of violent provocation/violent response is actually beneficial to the extremists on both sides. Each needs the other to justify their actions and continued existence.

Its almost like something we learn in Kindergarten isn't it?

[bush_cheney2004]

The apartheid South African government once enjoyed military and economic aid. They had a great relationship with U.S., U.K. and Israel who was one of their best friends. Look what happened to them.

They still do.....

The current situation is not going to work. More and more of the Jewish population, mostly the ones living outside of Israel are speaking out against Israel. Something you didn't see in the past. Pressure on Israel is coming from every angle. Economically, they are also losing out. Just last week, 12 more EU countries put out warnings against doing deals with Israeli companies who are in the settlements.

All talk and no walk.....Israel still has the strongest mixed economy in the ME and is hardly "losing out". Last month, Israel joined the "Paris Club" of creditor nations. The current situation is not going to work...for Palestine.

Item: Canada and Israel Free Trade Agreement

On January 21, 2014, Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Benjamin Netanyahu, Prime Minister of the State of Israel, announced the launch of negotiations to expand and modernize the CIFTA Agreement (See News Release: PM Launches Negotiations to Expand Free Trade with Israel). The first round of negotiations took place in Israel from February 3-9, 2014 (See News Release: Canada Welcomes First Round of Negotiations to Expand Free Trade Agreement with Israel).

http://www.international.gc.ca/trade-agreements-accords-commerciaux/agr-acc/israel/index.aspx?lang=eng

Edited July 12, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[marcus]

They still do.....

All talk and no walk.....Israel still has the strongest mixed economy in the ME and is hardly "losing out". Last month, Israel joined the "Paris Club" of creditor nations. The current situation is not going to work...for Palestine.

Item: Canada and Israel Free Trade Agreement

On January 21, 2014, Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Benjamin Netanyahu, Prime Minister of the State of Israel, announced the launch of negotiations to expand and modernize the CIFTA Agreement (See News Release: PM Launches Negotiations to Expand Free Trade with Israel). The first round of negotiations took place in Israel from February 3-9, 2014 (See News Release: Canada Welcomes First Round of Negotiations to Expand Free Trade Agreement with Israel).

http://www.international.gc.ca/trade-agreements-accords-commerciaux/agr-acc/israel/index.aspx?lang=eng

It's not a secret that Harper is one of the biggest Zionist lapdogs. What's your point?

Several European countries have stopped doing business in Israel and with Israeli companies that do business in the settlements.

Netanyahu will be gone in the next elections. His only supporters are now the uber racist Zionists. Change will come and I'm hopeful it will be in my lifetime.

[bush_cheney2004]

It's not a secret that Harper is one of the biggest Zionist lapdogs. What's your point?

CIFTA goes back to 1996 and was amended twice long before PM Harper came along...nice try.

Several European countries have stopped doing business in Israel and with Israeli companies that do business in the settlements.

Israel has about twice as much GDP growth than Canada. Must be those European nations stopping business with Canada because of Harper, eh ?

[marcus]

CIFTA goes back to 1996 and was amended twice long before PM Harper came along...nice try.

Israel has about twice as much GDP growth than Canada. Must be those European nations stopping business with Canada because of Harper, eh ?

My point is that Israel is being effected from different angles because of its occupation and treatment of the Palestinians. You may want to ignore these changes, but they are happening:

Top Obama official blasts Israel for denying Palestinians sovereignty, security, dignity

“Israel confronts an undeniable reality: It cannot maintain military control of another people indefinitely. Doing so is not only wrong but a recipe for resentment and recurring instability,” Gordon said. “It will embolden extremists on both sides, tear at Israel’s democratic fabric and feed mutual dehumanization.”

In contrast, if we fail to come back to peace talks, renewed efforts to isolate Israel internationally and legitimize Palestinian statehood unilaterally are all but certain. The United States will do all it can to fight boycotts and other delegitimization efforts. But in many of these realms, particularly outside the Security Council, our ability to contain the damage is limited, and becoming more and more challenging. This is what American friends of Israel mean when they express concerns about the potential for Israeli isolation if peace talks do not succeed. Let me be absolutely clear that these are not threats. The United States will always have Israel’s back. That’s why we fight for it every day at the United Nations, where we have worked diligently to ensure Israel is treated fairly and on par with all other states.

But as Israel’s greatest defender and closest friend we owe it to you to ask fundamental questions—which in fact many Israelis are asking themselves: how will Israel remain democratic and Jewish if it attempts to govern the millions of Palestinian Arabs who live in the West Bank? How will it have peace if it is unwilling to delineate a border, end the occupations and allow for Palestinian sovereignty, security, and dignity? How will we prevent other states from isolating Israel or supporting Palestinian efforts in international bodies if Israel is not seen as committed to peace?

Link 1

Link 2

[bush_cheney2004]

...Top Obama official blasts Israel for denying Palestinians sovereignty, security, digni

Perhaps you do not understand.....President Obama's "officials" can't do much to change widespread support for Israel by members of the U.S. Congress or the people who vote for them. That's where the foreign aid money comes from. Obama is playing the same game as all previous administrations.

Why can't the Palestinians get similar levels of aid (BILLION$) and support from all those "other states" condemning Israel?

Iran (Palestinian/Hamas ally) actually has far more real UN sanctions imposed by other nations compared to Israel. Hamas (Gaza) has also loss support, as Egypt and Syria have their own issues to worry about. Even ISIS has turned its back on Hamas. That's why it's time to attack Israel with Iranian rockets (again)....to garner lost support against the big bad Israelis attacking poor, "innocent" Palestinians.

Edited July 12, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[Rue]

To Hudson Jones:

Your comments made zero sense. You claim it is reasonable for the Arab world to refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. You claim it is reasonable that their proposal to only recognize Israel when it is not a Jewish state and when it accepts into its country anyone but Jews who claims to be Palestinian sot hat it would render the Jews in Israel without homes and citizenship makes zero sense.

Oh but wait, a Muslim majority population state where Israel is now is a reasonable proposal and Israel should have taken it.

Hudson you keep playing that tune. Its stale, its been played since 1948, and its not being listened to. You keep supporting people who want Israel disbanded as a Jewish state and pretend that is a reasonable offer.You do that.

Now as for Eye who thinks tis so easy to figure out what the conflict is and that you learned it in Kindergarten, you keep up with the same smug, sheltered silver spoon pontifications as Hudson Jones. I can see the two of you sitting their with your pink faces, red necks,pith helmets and arm gin

snickering to each other..."ooh those Jews they are just so tribal and savage a haw haw haw...."

You take your patronizing colonial assumptions and shove them in a place where the sun does set over your empire.

That snitty little know it all tone you use is something both Israelis and Palestinians know only too well.

You think you have a clue what the perceptions are of either people? Do you? Tell us all, how did you grow up in a conflict zone Eye and gain the insights to know what causes people to get caught up in violence? Go on tell us the tough streets you grew up on and how you learned to overcome your violent ways. Do tell us.

Another arm chair genius who presumes he knows. Tee hee and a giggle giggle over to Balck Dog about those savage semites.

Oh no but wait. We can go back to Hudson Jones' make believe world if you want where Hamas only shoots missiles when provoked.

Hamas only acts defensively, Its terrorism is totally justified and only in response to big bad Zionists. Engaging in terrorism in Hudson Jones' world is reasonable self defence.

What I wish I could is take Hudson Jones, Eyeball and any other resident Israel geniuses on the board who presume you can tell Israelis what they should do and stick you in the path of an incoming missile. I wish I could have you collect the body parts of people blown up in terrorist attacks. Then and only then would you shut up and stop presuming you understand

The needless cycle of violence may seem easy for Eye and Hudson to figure out, but neither has a clue of the reality faced by Israelis or Palestinians.

Their smug assumptions come from a computer while they sit thousands of miles away from the conflict zone.

[Argus]

Let's be clear that accepting Israel as a state has been a requirement by international law but accepting Israel as a "Jewish" state has not been.

I wonder how it is nobody ever seems to complain about Saudi Arabia being a Muslim state which is far more religiously restrictive than Israel. You can't build a church in Saudi Arabia, nor preach anything but Islam. You can't even wear a cross. If you're not a Muslim, you can't even go to cities where their holy sites are located. Want to be a tourist and see the Western wall? No problem. Want to see the Dome on the Rock? No problem. Want to see Mecca? Your eyes would profane that sacred site, infidel!

[Argus]

Israel should have learned by now that these one-sided disproportionate attacks have not and will not help their cause. They will continue to draw international public opinion against them.

Haven't seen any yet, except from the people who have always hated them anyway.

[Big Guy]

Haven't seen any yet, except from the people who have always hated them anyway.

I do not hate Israelis. I do not hate Jews. I do think that to try to explain a confrontation where on one side, 150 are killed and 900 injured while on the other side, no one killed and 3 injured as a fair and deserved interaction does have credibility problems.

As to the appropriate response argument, there are over 260 traffic deaths in Israel annually.

The Palestinians are winning the PR war and building up thousands of potential suicide bombers in reserves.

I agree with Hudson Jones on this particular point.

[dre]

They never did. Never has any Palestinian leader agreed to recognize the jewish state of Israel. All they have agreed to recognize is a NON JEWISH state of Israel. They never offered any plans either.

States cant pray or go to church. Recognition of Israel as a sovereign state and respecting its borders is all thats necessary or reasonable to ask for. Anything beyond that is just an attempt draw this whole thing out.

BTW... Likud has in its constitution that it will never under any circumstances allow ANY arab state west of the Jordan...

a. “The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”

b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”

c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”

So really... for them to even PRETEND that the failure of Palestinian leaders to recognize Israel as a Jewish state has any bearing on the failure of negotiations is complete BS.

Edited July 12, 2014 by dre

[Hal 9000]

It's all about Jerusalem! The palastinians can be offered anything and everything, but they will will not stop until they have Jerusalem.

[-TSS-]

Hamas are cowards who hide behind the backs of civilians while carrying out their operations. Anyone who disagrees with that statement is either very biased or is living in some cloud cuckoo-land.

Having said that, it is rather exceptional that a civilian crime, albeit very heinous one, is dealt with by carrying out a military operation.

[jbg]

Yes. All of the plans would recognize Israel as a state (not "Jewish State") as it is not required by international law. There would also be peace and normalization of relations. It's in the Peace Initiative. Check out what the leaders of all Western countries have said about the peace plan. It's only Israel that does not accept the plan or even try to negotiate based on the plan. This is another indication that Israel is not interested in resolving this issue and would rather see the cycle continue. This will allow them to continue their illegal expansion and annexation of Palestinian land.

But all of those plans forced Israel to allow the return of a huge number of Arab immigrants so it would lose its Jewish character.

[jbg]

The apartheid South African government once enjoyed military and economic aid. They had a great relationship with U.S., U.K. and Israel who was one of their best friends. Look what happened to them.

The current situation is not going to work. More and more of the Jewish population, mostly the ones living outside of Israel are speaking out against Israel. Something you didn't see in the past. Pressure on Israel is coming from every angle. Economically, they are also losing out. Just last week, 12 more EU countries put out warnings against doing deals with Israeli companies who are in the settlements.

Dream on. Israel's hi-tech industry is hardly "losing out." And South Africa was different. The white population was a distinct minority. Unless Israel is dumb enough to allow it to be flooded with non-Jewish immigrants that paradigm won't happen.

[marcus]

The display by some Israeli politicians and many Israelis has been quite disturbing in the recent month. 5 days into Israel's disproportionate attack on Gazans has resulted in over 120 people dead with more than 3/4 of them civilians.

From the burning of a boy by six Israelis to today, where Israeli airstrikes hit a home for disabled Gazans, killing two and wounding several others.

These attacks are being cheered, instead of condemned. Where is the moral standard and moral superiority we are used to hearing about?

Here are some videos of a lynch mob, yelling "Death to Arabs". Report after report have come out where Palestinians have been attacked.

There was an outrage in social media where a photo went viral showing Israelis, sitting at a hilltop, near the Gaza border, cheering on every bomb and missile that exploded in Gaza.

An Israeli lawmaker’s call for genocide of Palestinians gets thousands of Facebook likes.

Why are we seeing this more than ever?

Many are pointing to a decaying culture. A decaying culture where some Israelis and many Jews outside of Israel are examining and questioning. They are willing to look within and acknowledge what has become of their culture. Here are excerpts from an article in Haaretz.

There are no words to describe the horror allegedly done by six Jews to Mohammed Abu Khdeir of Shoafat. Although a gag order bars publication of details of the terrible murder and the identities of its alleged perpetrators, the account of Abu Khdeir’s family — according to which the boy was burned alive — would horrify any mortal. Anyone who is not satisfied with this description, can view the horror movie in which members of Israel’s Border Police are seen brutally beating Tariq Abu Khdeir, the murder victim’s 15-year-old cousin.

The Israel Police was quick to label the murderers “Jewish extremists,” meaning they aren’t part of the herd, they are outliers, “wild weeds.” This is the police’s way of trying to justify a sin, to “make the vermin kosher.” But the vermin is huge, and many-legged. It has embraced the soldiers and other young Israelis who overran the social media networks with calls for revenge and with hatred for Arabs.

Abu Khdeir’s murderers are not “Jewish extremists.” They are the descendants and builders of a culture of hate and vengeance that is nurtured and fertilized by the guides of “the Jewish state": Those for whom every Arab is a bitter enemy, simply because they are Arab; those who were silent at the Beitar Jerusalem games when the team’s fans shouted “death to Arabs” at Arab players; those who call for cleansing the state of its Arab minority, or at least to drive them out of the homes and cities of the Jews.

Edited July 13, 2014 by marcus

[marcus]

But all of those plans forced Israel to allow the return of a huge number of Arab immigrants so it would lose its Jewish character.

No. Not all plans.