kidnapped Israeli teens bodies found

[Guest]

And that makes sense, given the reference to "defending themselves". I apologise unreservedly to both for implying they were the same.

And to overthere for getting him all excited.

[Rue]

OK let's deal head on with the usual accusations that Israel is mercilessly bombing innocent people.

1. The IDF calls up the people in the building they are going to blow up before they bomb it.

2. The IDF in fact first uses a non explosive device as a second warning to vacate the building.

3. Then the IDF watchs to see if the building is vacated.

4. They they bomb.

This is precisely why in the last few days there have been 300 injuries reported by Hamas instead of deaths.

If Israel was planning to deliberately kill civilians it would not engage in 1-3 before they bombed.

Now for those who claim Israel should just sit on its ass while Hamas rockets come in, its not going to happen, the same way the US, Canada, ANY NATION would not sit on its ass while someone shot rockets at its citizens.

In the most recent report Israel targeted 60 houses in 48 hours kiling 5 militants.

Hamas in Gaza then reported 41 residents were killed but no one neutral has verified that amount.

The IDF claims it fired at 500 targets in the last 48 hours. Even if we are to believe 41 innocent civilians died, considering the number of missions it is incredible not more have died, at that is a testament to the caution the IDF is using. One innocent civilian dying is too many on a basic humaintarian level.

However to say Israel should do nothing but remain silent as missiles come in at Zichron Yaakov, Caesaria, Hadera, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem is absolute b.s.

Make no mistake as to what is happening. Hamas places its weapons and its ammunitions and launches its missiles from the sites of civilians so that it will deliberately place their own civilians in harms way to die so to be used as pr pawns.

Look at the apologists for Hamas and how they work on this forum to understand why they do this. Zero mention from these apologists of why these civilians are dying other than to say Israel is killing them. Zero mention of how Hamas places them in the direct line of fire. Zero mention as to how the IDF tries its best to warn civilians to get out.

Hamas are cowards. They expose their own people to death to launch a pr war and I expect armchair experts in Canada to yap on cue in support of Hamas. They have never been to Gaza and they have never had a missile shot at them.

Its easy to sit thousands of miles from the conflict zone playing know it all as to the IDF and say, sit there and do nothing. Its all your fault IDF. How dare you protect your citizens.

Well guess what.

Israel will do what is necessary to crush Hamas and protect its people. It will try its best not to kill innocent civilians but it will protect its people and those of you who turn your blind eye to Hamas hear it loud and clear, if Palestinians die, they do so needlessly because Hamas chooses them to die. Hamas chooses to kill its people as a pr tool.

For those of you who blame the IDF I say to you directly, your apology of what Hamas does and your being manipulated to spit out on cue for them against Israel empowers them and rewards them for killing the very civilians you blame the IDF for killing. Every time you cheer Hamas on, every time you remain silent as to their use of civilians as death pawns, you empower their pr campaign to continue to expose their own people to death.

Before you are so quick to point that finger at anyone make sure you aint just stickin it up your own nose.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Rue

[Hal 9000]

Frankly, I'm getting sick of Hamas and the Palastinians. It's always the same, they launch missiles from schoolhouses or markets and when Israel has had enough and fires back, they run to the international community and claim victim status. Israel gives in and once the Palastinians have restocked enough rockets, they repeat the process.

I really hope Israel deals with this once and for all.

[Argus]

. Then blame the Palestinians when the fight back and slaughter hundreds or even thousands more with the US supplied weapons of mass destruction.

Which weapons of mass destruction are the Jews using on the Palestinians?

Have the Palestinian homemade rockets succeeded in killing one Zionist yet? Or at least upsetting a Zionist's milk cow in a cow pasture?

Are you blaming the Israelis for being better at this than the Palestinians? Would you feel better if a bunch of Israelis had died, too?

[Argus]

This exchange followed, at 9:25 in the video above:

QUESTION: But you feel that sort of the Israeli air raids, like maybe hundreds of them so far this day, are proportionate to the rockets?

Proportionate is a concept born of comfortable, fat, lazy westerners who have mostly never seen or heard a shot fired in anger. The Israelis will keep pounding the Palestinians until the Palestinians stop shooting rockets over the border. End of story.

PS, if Palestine was next door to us we'd do the same thing.

[monty16]

I'm not blaming Jews because it's not their fault. And I'm not blaming Israelis either. I'm blaming Zionists who are no better than Nazis. I don't feel better when any group of people are killed, that's your ideas out of your own mind.

As for the Palestinians shooting rockets over the border, if It stops again the Zionists will shoot a few small ones into cow pastures to make it look like the Palestinians did it. We know the modus operandi of the Zionist!

And besides, what's the problem if those homemade rockets don't kill anybody?

Oyyyyyy veyyyyy, the humanity! The cow dried up for two days!!!!

[Hudson Jones]

they run to the international community and claim victim status.

Or the civilians run into their own homes or go to a cafe to try to catch a world cup game and then get bombed by the Israel "Defense" Force jets and die.

I'm sure you're getting sick of all these civilians getting blown into pieces by Israel.

In the meantime, Israeli jets and drones have been carrying out the assault. Early Thursday, an airstrike leveled a house in the teeming Gaza city of Khan Younis. According to a neighbor, the Israeli military had telephoned the intended target, a Hamas rocket engineer named Yassir al-Haj, and warned him that his house was about to be destroyed.

But Haj was not at home. He dialed his sleeping family but could not rouse them, according to the neighbor, and an Israeli missile killed seven family members. They were buried side by side Thursday afternoon.

“Why kill everyone in the house for just one guy?” said the neighbor, Fahad al-Dali.

Nine Palestinians were killed in an airstrike late Wednesday while watching the World Cup semifinal match at a cafe, according to relatives of the men. A bulldozer sifted through debris at the Fun Time Beach cafe Thursday morning in a search for the remains of a tenth person.

[Argus]

I'm blaming Zionists who are no better than Nazis.

Really? The Nazis gased millions of people and buried them in mass graves. They attacked and occupied all of the nations around them, and shot anyone who disagreed with them. Fifty mllion people died because of the Nazis.

How many have the Israelis killed, aside from wars started against them? A few thousands? Phhht. You have a strange sense of proporion.

As for the Palestinians shooting rockets over the border, if It stops again the Zionists will shoot a few small ones into cow pastures to make it look like the Palestinians did it. We know the modus operandi of the Zionist!

How do you know that? Been there? Got any evidence of this? I haven't even heard Hamas suggesting it was the Israelis who were actually firing rockets against themselves. Why do you suppose Hamas is covering up for the Zionists?

[monty16]

Yeah, been there and got lots of evidence of the Zionazi evil apartheid regime against the Palestinian people. And no, the Israelis aren't the problem so they don't fire rockets against themselves. The Zionists do that when the Palestinians don't so they can keep murdering the Palestinian people. Now is there anything else you want to harass me about or can you find somebody who wants to play your stupic denial of the facts game?

[marcus]

I think a better comparison would be to compare the Zionist regime to the South African Apartheid government. A racist government with no care for human rights and international law.

Apartheid South Africa did not have the powerful lobby that heavily influences the biggest power in the world, U.S. which also has a mainstream media that practices self-censorship when describing the conflict. So that's why it's taking longer to change. But the momentum is strong and we will see the fall of Zionism.

[bush_cheney2004]

Nope....."Zionism" is still going strong while its regional enemies are destabilized. Hamas is broke....

Peace will come to the Middle East when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us. - Golda Meir

[marcus]

Nope....."Zionism" is still going strong while its regional enemies are destabilized. Hamas is broke....

Peace will come to the Middle East when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us. - Golda Meir

Hamas is just a scape-goat. If it's not Hamas, it will be another boogyman to excuse the Zionist behaviour.

South Africans were broke, but things changed there. You will soon learn that no matter how much money you throw at the military or propaganda, it is only a matter of time that human rights will win.

The people of the world already acknowledge Israel's violations. The governments are next to follow:

12 more EU countries warn against trade with Israeli settlements - Diplomacy and Defense

Edited July 11, 2014 by marcus

[Black Dog]

Proportionate is a concept born of comfortable, fat, lazy westerners who have mostly never seen or heard a shot fired in anger. The Israelis will keep pounding the Palestinians until the Palestinians stop shooting rockets over the border. End of story.

It's definitely going to work this time, unlike all the other times it didn't.

[bush_cheney2004]

Hamas is just a escape-goat. If it's not Hamas, it will be another boogyman to excuse the Zionist behaviour.

I think you mean "scapegoat"....which ironically comes from the Hebrew term azazel:

And Aaron shall place lots upon the two he goats: one lot "For the Lord," and the other lot, "For Azazel."

South Africans were broke, but things changed there. You will soon learn that no matter how much money you throw at the military or propaganda, it is only a matter of time that human rights will win.

Which is all the more reason why the Palestinians have screwed things up so badly for so long. Other groups have succeeded with non-violence and sanctions, while they continue to fight a losing strategy. Sad.....no more Kennedys to shoot either.

Edited July 11, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[jbg]

Who has the right to defend themselves? Only the chosen people?

State Dep’t says Israel has a right to defend itself, but can’t say the same of Palestinians

The "Palestinians" were offered states of their own on numerous occasions, each of which they turned down. They have continued a state of asymmetrical warfare against Israel and its citizens. Are you saying Israel should not defend itself?

[marcus]

I think you mean "scapegoat"....which ironically comes from the Hebrew term azazel:

And Aaron shall place lots upon the two he goats: one lot "For the Lord," and the other lot, "For Azazel."

Which is all the more reason why the Palestinians have screwed things up so badly for so long. Other groups have succeeded with non-violence and sanctions, while they continue to fight a losing strategy. Sad.....no more Kennedys to shoot either.

Scapegoat. I appreciate the correction.

Majority of Palestinians have been practicing non-violence. Non-violent protests are a norm in the Occupied Territories. Especially in the recent years and especially if you compare the violence from the Israeli side. One look at the number of deaths, injured and property damage and it's obvious who is practicing violence. It's just that you are either willingly or unwillingly following the Zionist propaganda in labeling the wrong side as the violent ones.

[marcus]

The "Palestinians" were offered states of their own on numerous occasions, each of which they turned down. They have continued a state of asymmetrical warfare against Israel and its citizens. Are you saying Israel should not defend itself?

No one would accept the "offered states" by Israel under the conditions that they have been offered.

That said, the Palestinians have not only accepted Israel within the internationally recognized borders but they have also offered several plans to the Israelis which they have rejected. There have been plans by the Arab League, by GWB and several other offers, but Israel has refused all of them. Why? Because Israel wants to continue what it is doing, which is expansionism and the suppression of the Palestinians.

Edited July 11, 2014 by marcus

[bush_cheney2004]

.....It's just that you are either willingly or unwillingly following the Zionist propaganda in labeling the wrong side as the violent ones.

I've been watching Conflict: Dirt Farm for over 45 years, with a consistently failing strategy still being followed by the Palestinians. I use to think they were just pawns in the Arab-Israeli wars, but have since come to understand that they are their own worst enemy. Failed policies...failed leadership....failed message. The "Zionists" have their poop in a group...have for a long time. It's not "rocket" science....

[Black Dog]

I came to the conclusion a while ago that the status quo of violent provocation/violent response is actually beneficial to the extremists on both sides. Each needs the other to justify their actions and continued existence.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Black Dog

[Rue]

That said, the Palestinians have not only accepted Israel within the internationally recognized borders but they have also offered several plans to the Israelis which they have rejected.

They never did. Never has any Palestinian leader agreed to recognize the jewish state of Israel. All they have agreed to recognize is a NON JEWISH state of Israel. They never offered any plans either.

What they have actually stated over and over again is that they would recognize a NON JEWISH state ONLY ON THE EXPRESS PRE CONDITION

that Israel take back in any Arab who identifies as a Palestinian and is NOT JEWISH.

No Palestinian leader, no Arab leader has ever come out and stated they will recognize a Jewish state of Israel and in return for the displaced Jews and their descendants forced to flee the Arab world and go to Israel, they will give up on the notion of a law of return of "Palestinians" to Israel.

Not even Egypt and Jordan recognize Israel as a Jewish state. They won't exchange ambassadors.

Now you either put up or stop with the falsehoods. Provide the plans where you claim a Palestinian leader offered to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

Its never happened and don't play semantics that because they have agreed to recognize Israel if it ceases to be a Jewish state and becomes a majority Palestinian state, that means its recognition of Israel. Its not. That game of semantics is stale.

It is an absolute and utter falsehood to say any Palestinian leader or Arab League nation will recognize Israel:

http://the-eyeontheworld.blogspot.ca/2014/03/arab-league-declares-it-will-never.html

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/176267#.U8BSCzTD_Og

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/09/us-israel-palestinians-arabs-idUSBREA280J920140309

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4151/palestinians-recognition-israel-jewish-state

[Rue]

Its time to talk about the root cause once again of this current escalating conflict and I refer to comments from the following opinion piece written by Arlene Kushner at:

http://www.arlenefromisrael.info/current-postings/2014/3/11/march-11-2014-preposterous.html

as well as:

http://anneinpt.wordpress.com/2014/03/12/explaining-palestinian-refusal-to-recognize-israel-as-a-jewish-state/

Let's be as clear, The Arab League has stated it will never recognize a Jewish state. It gathered and stated so openly and repeatedly just a few monthgs ago to bolster Mr. Abbas who now states in addition to never accepting Israel as a Jewish state, also stating the Arab League won't authorize him to. He has added that to his litany.

Also added to his litany was the open embracing of Hamas and refusing to denounce their charter calling for Israel's destruction.

The deaths of the three Jewish youth and one Palestinian youth simply fan the flames but they are just symptoms of the root of the conflict that has never changed since 1948 and that is the Arab world will never accept a Jewish state in Israel. What they will recognize is a Muslim state in Israel.

There is no peace process. It was a farse in Oslo, Camp David and most recently US Secretary of State John Kerry.

Eric R. Mandel, Founder of the Middle East Political and Information Network stated about Kerry:

”Secretary of State Kerry’s well-meaning attempt to forge a framework agreement between the Israeli and Palestinian governments is based on the conventional Western perspective of conflict resolution. Western democratic nations that sign treaties overwhelmingly respect the words on the paper they sign. ”But what happens when western democracies ask a democratic nation to sign a western- style treaty with an adversary that values tribe and clan over the nation-state? What happens when one party’s narrative is almost totally based on the negation of the other? While the media look through conventional glasses at the prospects for an Israeli- Palestinian framework agreement and pose certain questions, the view for those truly interested in a lasting peace should be through a more nuanced lens. Such an analysis raises questions that are more difficult.

Is a lasting Israel-Palestinian peace achievable if only one side accepts the legitimacy of the other’s narrative? To begin to resolve the conflict, American and Israeli negotiators should consider a western-style treaty only with concurrent recognition of the narratives of both parties. Diplomatic maneuvering, no matter how well meaning, can not lead to a lasting peace in this region without addressing the fundamental narratives of the adversaries.

...It is essential to understand how Palestinian Arabs think and what they believe. The Palestinian Arab national identity is almost exclusively defined by negating the Israeli narrative, including Israel’s legitimate right to exist as a Jewish state, with precious few positive Palestinian nationalistic qualities.

”Palestinian Arabs mark their historical time by memorializing what others perpetrated upon them. The quintessential narrative marked in time is the ‘Nakba,’ the catastrophe of the creation of the State of Israel.

Delegitimizing Jewish historical connections to the land extends from mosques to school textbooks, from the PA press to the PA leadership.

...On a recent trip to the Middle East, I interviewed members of the PA, PLO, Hamas, the Jordanian Parliament, and the Muslim Brotherhood.

”They all shared the same talking points about the Jews living in Israel. Uniformly, Israel is considered a colonialist enterprise – illegally imposed, and populated by foreigners with no legitimate right to the land. Almost all believe that Israel continually commits ‘war crimes,’ targets Arab civilians, and oppresses defenseless native Palestinians.

Violence committed against Jewish civilians is rationalized as the only legitimate avenue available to an oppressed people.

This troubling narrative is not confined to Hamas, but is part of the DNA of Palestinian Arabs whether they reside in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Judea, or Samaria."

The above points are for me the position I have come to conclude after years of being a peace activisit for Israelis and Palestinians.

I fail at this point in time to hear any Palestinian moderates speak out and challenge the Arab world'srefusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, and without that challenge moderates in support of Israel who want to build a two state solution with Palestinians are neutralized.

We have no options. We have no one to speak to.

In fact people like me who supported Rabin at Oslo and Barak at Camp David have been humiliated and lied to.

No we do not embrace the far right Likud members of Lieberman or extremist Jewish settlers on the West Bank but we are not in the mood to be lectured to by anyone that Israel has failed to pursue peace options.

Israel has tried. They tried at Oslo and Arafat refererred to the agreement at Oslo as a ruse, a temporary exercise to buy time until all of Israel could be destroyed just as Muhammed years before entered an agreement for peace, then used it to arm his soldiers and regroup then turn around and desroy the enemy he signed the peace agreement with. Arafat referred to this bargaining in bad faith as a legitimate exercise of deception.

His own body guard went on Arab television to say Arafat deliberately lied and felt lying to the West and Israel was an acceptable thing to do.

Let one person who wants to challenge Israel for defending itself provide one piece of evidence Arafat or Abbas ever intended to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. They can not. They never did.

Their strategy has never changed since 1947. Their only position has been create a Sunni Muslim caliphate in Israel, Jordan and the West Bank.

In 1919 King Faisal described Jews coming to Palestine as legitimate Nationalists and brothers. He quoted the Koran that said no one is a legitimate Muslim if they refuse to recognize the right of Jewish people to live in peace in Israel.

He and other Arabs did not hate Jews coming to Palestine any more than they hated Arabs, Muslims or Christians coming to Palestine.

The British and French lied to him, told him Jews were planning to kill him and had him as a result of that lie rip up aan agreement to develop two states one Arab Muslim one Jewish Israeli, side by side.

The British and French knew if this happened, they would have no influence in this area of the world.

So they lied and divided. By the time Faisal ripped up the agreement and found out the French h ad lied to him, he was exiled and the French illegally created puppet kingdoms in Syria and Lebanon and the British in Jordan and Iraq then later Saudi Arabia.

These two colonial powers deliberately created a Muslim-Jewish tension to destablize the area to justify their presence.

Churchill then illegally seized 95% of the land earmaked for a Jewish state and created TransJordan a Jewish free Palestinian state that today is called Jordan, remains Jewish free (no Jew can be a citizen of Jordan) and refers to itself as a Palestinian state.

Churchill admitted in his memoirs the British lied and violated their mandate and illegally created this country to prevent a Jewish state to pay back their World War One Arab allies for helping them defeat the Ottoman Empire.

The British then engineered a flood into Palestine of Muslims who displaced the actual Palestinians and yet today in the fiction of Palestine, these outsiders ancestors who now live on the West Bank are referred to as Palestinians, a phrase only created in 1967 by Arafat after he failed to kill King Hussein and take over Jordan.

Arafat and all his Palestinian leaders before that laughed at the concept of calling Arabs or Muslims Palestinians.

Today the world states the West Bank that was never a nation was and is a nation. They deny that Jordan is not a Palestinian state. They pretend that Mr. Abbas who wrote his Ph.d thesis in Moscow claiming the holocaust did not happen is a moderate.

They lecture Israel that it must enter into a peace agreement with Mr. Abbas, a man who openly states he will never recognize the right of Jews to have their own state, and openly embraces Hamas whose charter is to destroy Israel and who launches missile after missile into Israel.

Mr. Abbas stands up in his assembly giving a standing ovation to fellow Palestinian leaders chanting that Israel should be destroyed.

While Mr. Netanyahu called the father of the killed Palestinian boy and expressed his sorrow, Mr. Abbas never called the parents of the three dead Jewish boys and express his sorrow.

While the IAF at this time warn Gaza citizens before they bomb, Hamas is not so careful when it shoots its missiles or who it directs to be killed.

Israel has been at war since 1947 and its never stopped and probably never will and therein is the true sadness of this conflict.

Its never changed. The narrative is still the same-if Jews wish to live in their own state its apartheid, but if Muslims wish to live in Muslim states that do not allow Jews, no one who pisses on Israel on this board says a thing.

The same people who call Israel evil and criticize the IAF, remain silent on the missiles coming in to Israel.

I agree with one thing Black Dog said. The terrorism of Hamas and other terror cells fuels their raison d'existence and neuters people like me. It cuts our political testacles off. We have no voice. What are we to say to Israelis-sit on your asses and let your children die and have the missiles blow you up.?

What absurd person tells an Israel, recognize people who won't recognize you?

Recognize what?

Why would anyone talk to Abbas or the Arab League now. There is no more fantasy as to peace negotiations.

It was a farse at Oslo, a farse at Camp David and a complete and utter farse with John Kerry who told Israel they should not expect to be recognized as a Jewish state.,

Kerry had the nerve to state to Israel when he posed as a mediator, they must accept all of Abbas' ultimatums and unilateral demands

or expect another intifada. He lit the fuse and now its on fire. He gave Abbas tacit recognition to never recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

Kerry pursued the issue of settlements on the West Bank but would not discuss why Israel would withdraw and leave the West Bank without a promise to disarm terrorists and recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

Kerry was a complete and utter fool. He broke ever cardinal rule of mediation and took sides and used languge that not only gave terrorists a green light but embarassed Netanyahu and made him look weak in front of Israelis.

John Kerry is a pin head. Abbas is an extremist. Hamas is what they are. Netanyahu? he is a pit bull-a pit bull of resistance to Hamas, Abbas, Kerry and if need be the world. He will bite back and innocent people will die because this is all a farse and always has been-there are no Arabs willing to stand up and say, enough is enough, we can not destroy the Jewish state of Israel, its time to disarm and live side by side.

You want Netanyahu to go away? You want the IDF back in their barracks. Its simple disarm the terrorists and recognize a Jewish state. The dream to undo Israel and turn it back into a Muslim state under the pretend fantasy its not what is meant, is over.

Never again will any Israeli listen to the bs stunt of pretending there was an offer to recognize Israel. The world heard Arafat say he lied to Israel and stated he never ever had any intention of recognizing a jewish state and deliberately lied.

Abbas, Hamas, the people who do not accept Jews have a right to a state, they can hiss and huff and puff all they want but Neanyahu will do what he has to do to protect Israelis in the coming days and I regret that will lead to the death of innocent civilians on either side.

[Argus]

Yeah, been there and got lots of evidence of the Zionazi evil apartheid regime against the Palestinian people. And no, the Israelis aren't the problem so they don't fire rockets against themselves. The Zionists do that when the Palestinians don't so they can keep murdering the Palestinian people. Now is there anything else you want to harass me about or can you find somebody who wants to play your stupic denial of the facts game?

You haven't established any facts exist. You claim to have evidence that "zionists" fire rockets at Israel, pretending to be Palestinians, but have given us no evidence. Nor have the Palestinians themselves ever made such a claim.

So I'm afraid it very much sounds like you invented this.

[Argus]

I think a better comparison would be to compare the Zionist regime to the South African Apartheid government. A racist government with no care for human rights and international law.

Seems to be that Blacks weren't allowed to vote in South Africa, much less run for office or join the military. Since Muslims can vote, run for office, and join the military in Israel, your comparison would seem to be... uhm, dumb.

[Argus]

It's definitely going to work this time, unlike all the other times it didn't.

Doing nothing vertainly hasn't made them stop.

[Hudson Jones]

Let's be as clear, The Arab League has stated it will never recognize a Jewish state. It gathered and stated so openly and repeatedly just a few monthgs ago to bolster Mr. Abbas who now states in addition to never accepting Israel as a Jewish state, also stating the Arab League won't authorize him to. He has added that to his litany.

Let's be clear that accepting Israel as a state has been a requirement by international law but accepting Israel as a "Jewish" state has not been. Abbas' government has accepted Israel as a state as according to international law. The Arab League has also said that they will accept Israel within the same borders, if they agree to an agreement which is actually quite generous and gives Israel land beyond the green line. Obama, the UN and many other relevant states and organizations have praised this plan.

Israel is dragging its feet once again and counting on perpetual war in order to continue to steal more Palestinian land. The Zionist regime now needs to be sidestepped as they are not honest and sincere negotiators.