jacee Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 Agreed. Israel doesn't need anybody's approval to be a Jewish state. Israel is moving the goalposts with this ridiculous demand, to perpetuate war as an excuse to pursue its aggressive expansion agenda. Israel is a rogue state. I expected better. . Quote
Hudson Jones Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 Israeli crowd cheering as bombs and missiles hit the Palestinians. These people are scum from the bottom of the barrel. Link Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 I wonder if all those rocket attacks were worth it. If the terrorists make the IDF come into Gaza, they are going to bring an ass whupping with them. Search and destroy all weapons stores. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
jacee Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 I wonder if all those rocket attacks were worth it. If the terrorists make the IDF come into Gaza, they are going to bring an ass whupping with them. Search and destroy all weapons stores. And Israel ppositions itself more and more as a rogue state. What will it take for Obama and Harper to withdraw support? Already, much of the Jewish North American population has withdrawn support for Israeli attacks on Gaza. . Quote
jacee Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 Israeli crowd cheering as bombs and missiles hit the Palestinians. These people are scum from the bottom of the barrel. Link Honestly HudJo, that's the way war is ... on both sides. . Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 And Israel ppositions itself more and more as a rogue state. What will it take for Obama and Harper to withdraw support? A miracle ? Obama cannot stop American support for Israel even if he wanted to. That's not how it works.... Already, much of the Jewish North American population has withdrawn support for Israeli attacks on Gaza. . Sure they have....as if you speak for them. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
jacee Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) You (dre) stated: "She (Jacee) isnt discriminating against them, Israeli Jews) in any way shape or form." ---- Nonsense. She has stated repeatedly Jews should not have a Jewish state. HORSESH!TIt's wise to actually read and comprehend what someone said before defaming them. Or perhaps your wealth of verbiage is a cover for a paucity of reading comprehension skill. In that case ... you'd be wise to avoid commenting on what you 'imagine' other people said ... because you'll be wrong. Alternatively, you would be well advised to sit on it and rotate. . Edited July 18, 2014 by jacee Quote
dre Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 Nonsense. She has stated repeatedly Jews should not have a Jewish state. One can only assume at this point that you are unable to read. They can have whatever state they want and they can decide on that through their democratic and constitutional processes. All that Jacee has said is that recognition of their chosen official religion by anyone outside Israel is not necessary. Not one other country that made peace with Israel was asked to do this, and its nothing but a poison pill designed to make negotiations fail. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Hal 9000 Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 Some of you guys are too literal when it comes to the word recognition. Anyway, as I said earlier, it's all about Jerusalem. Israel has control of it and the Palestinians want it - simple as that. Hamas just wants to kill jews. Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
jbg Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 Theres nobody on EITHER side with any interest in negotiating the above with the exception of maybe Abbas. Preventing the establishment of ANY Arab state west of the river jordan is a core Constitutional plank for Likud. They are not honest negotiators in this any more than Hamas. Israel would not agree to your 7 stipulations even if there was no terrorism originating from the occupied territories. Why should the Arabs not be carving a state for the Palestinians out of their territory? Why only tiny Israel? The West is either infected by self-hatred or hatred of Jews. One of those has got to be the answer here. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 Who cares? Why does the state of Israel care how other people define it ... especially Hamas, which is not even a state? A mature state defines itself! Does Canada demand that the US recognize us as a "bilingual state"? Of course not! They have to recognize us as a state, but what kind of state is not their business and we don't give a damn what they think: We define ourselves, for ourselves. Demanding that Hamas 'say Jewish' is just throwing an obstacle in the way of peace, indicating a total lack of desire for peace. It's the equivalent of one kid demanding that another kid 'say uncle' ... immature, conduct-disordered behaviour.. Some context is needed. In 2000 Clinton almost clinched a "deal" with Arafat. He blew that deal up (pun intended) by demanding that Israel accept a virtually unlimited number of "returning" refugees and their descendants. I think that's where the issue comes from. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
iolo Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 The Zionists will always stage some provocation to keep up the killing. American support means mass death for many, many children. Quote
Black Dog Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 Some context is needed. In 2000 Clinton almost clinched a "deal" with Arafat. He blew that deal up (pun intended) by demanding that Israel accept a virtually unlimited number of "returning" refugees and their descendants. I think that's where the issue comes from. Cite please. Quote
Black Dog Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 People who say Hamas could end the conflict by not launching rockets into Israel always seem to forget that Israel's usual response to periods of calm is to keep building settlements in contested post 1967 areas. Said it before and I'll say it again: Hamas and the Israeli hard right (as personified by Netanyahu and the settler bloc) are simply flip sides of the same coin, with the latter exploiting the former's intransigence to further their own aims. Quote
jbg Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) Some context is needed. In 2000 Clinton almost clinched a "deal" with Arafat. He blew that deal up (pun intended) by demanding that Israel accept a virtually unlimited number of "returning" refugees and their descendants. I think that's where the issue comes from. Cite please. see excerpts of Clinton notes below (link): Arafat was also trying to wiggle out of giving up the right of return. He knew he had to but was afraid of the criticism he would get. I reminded him that Israel had promised to take some of the refugees from Lebanon whose families had lived in what was now northern Israel for hundreds of years, but that no Israeli leader would ever let in so many Palestinians that the Jewish character of the state could be threatened in a few decades by the higher Palestinian birthrate. There were not going to be two majority-Arab states in the Holy Land; Arafat had acknowledged that by signing the 1993 peace agreement with its implicit two-state solution. Besides, the agreement had to be approved by Israeli citizens in a referendum. The right of return was a deal breaker. I wouldn’t think of asking h Israelis to vote for it. On the other hand, I thought the Israelis would vote for a final settlement within the parameters I had laid out. If there was an agreement, I even thought Barak might be able to come back and win the election, thought he was running well behind Sharon in the polls, in an electorate frightened by the intifada and angered by Arafat’s refusal to make peace. At times Arafat seemed confused, not wholly in command of the facts. I had felt for some time that he might not be at the top of his game any longer, after all the years of spending the night in different places to dodge assassins’ bullets, all the countless hours on airplanes, all the endless hours of tension-filled talks. Perhaps he simply couldn’t make the final jump from revolutionary to statesman. He had grown used to flying from place to place, giving mother-of-pearl gifts made by Palestinian craftsmen to world leaders and appearing on television with them. It would be different if the end of violence took Palestine out of the headlines and instead he had to worry about providing jobs, schools, and basic services. Most of the young people on Arafat’s team wanted him to take the deal. I believe Abu Ala and Abu Mazen also would have agreed but didn’t want to be at odds with Arafat. ... When he left, I still had no idea what Arafat was going to do. His body language said no, but the deal was so good I couldn’t believe anyone would be foolish enough to let it go. Barak wanted me to come to the region, but I wanted Arafat to say yes to the Israelis on the big issues embodied in my parameters first. In December the parties had met at Bolling Air Force Base for talks that didn’t succeed because Arafat wouldn’t accept the parameters that were hard for him. Finally, Arafat agreed to see Shimon Peres on the thirteenth after Peres had first met with Saeb Erekat. Nothing came of it. As a backstop, the Israelis tried to produce a letter with as much agreement on the parameter as possible, on the assumption that Barak would lose the election and at least both sides would be bound to a course that could lead to an agreement. Arafat wouldn’t even do that, because he didn’t want to be seen conceding anything. The parties continued their talks in Taba, Egypt. They got close, but did not succeed. Arafat never said no; he just couldn’t bring himself to say yes. Pride goeth before the fall. Right before I left office, Arafat, in one of our last conversations, thanked me for all my efforts and told me what a great man I was. “Mr. Chairman,” I replied, “I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you have made me one.” I warned Arafat that he was single-handedly electing Sharon and that he would reap the whirlwind. In February 2001, Ariel Sharon would be elected prime minister in a landslide. The Israelis had decided that if Arafat wouldn’t take my offer he wouldn’t take anything, and that if they had no partner for peace, it was better to be led by the most aggressive, intransigent leader available. Sharon would take a hard line toward Arafat and would be supported in doing so by Ehud Barak and the United States. Nearly a year after I left office, Arafat said he was ready to negotiate on the basis of the parameters I had presented. Apparently, Arafat had thought the time to decide, five minutes to midnight, had finally come. His watch had been broken a long time. Arafat’s rejection of my proposal after Barak accepted it was an error of historic proportions. However, many Palestinians and Israelis are still committed to peace. Someday peace will come, and when it does, the final agreement will look a lot like the proposals that came out of Camp David and the six long months that followed. Edited July 18, 2014 by jbg Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
iolo Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 Zionists will always try to confuse the issue, which is this: they are occupying someone else's country, trying to conquer the neighbours, and killing children all the time. What do they offer their victims, ever, except death? Who but a fool would do other than fight them? Quote
Rue Posted July 18, 2014 Author Report Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) Dre the quotes I provided make it abundantly clear Abbas will not recognize a Jewish state. Your pretending they don't speaks for itself. I also expected Jacee to come on this forum and also deny she said Israel should not be recognized as a Jewish state. Edited July 18, 2014 by Rue Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 Zionists will always try to confuse the issue, which is this: they are occupying someone else's country, trying to conquer the neighbours, and killing children all the time. What do they offer their victims, ever, except death? Who but a fool would do other than fight them? Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, etc. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Rue Posted July 18, 2014 Author Report Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) Get this crystal clear Jacee.I challenge your words. Your claiming that is a personal attack is nonsense. You continue to claim Israel should not have to be recognized as a Jewish state by Palestinians. That is what I challenge. In 1947 the proposal called for a JEWISH state and an Arab state. Since that date the Arab world not just the Palestinian Authority continue to refuse to recognize a Jewish state and that is because Mr. Abbas and the leaders at the most recent Arab League summit who rejected recognizing Israel as a Jewish state believe if they recognized Israel as a Jewish state, they could no longer demand as they do today that ANYONE WHO IS A NON JEW WHO CLAIMS TO BE A PALESTINIAN SHOULD HAVE AUTOMATIC CITIZENSHIP IF THEY WANT TO RETURN TO ISRAEL. You repeat yet again your denial of Jews being recognized as a state collective. That is what I challenge. You want to take that as a personal attack and swear go ahead.Those are your words and it is those words I challenge. Israelis have the right to be a Jewish nation. The Arab world and the Palestinian Authority and all the terror cells do not think so. They want people returned to Israel who are not Jewish to turn it into a Muslim state. That is a fact. You can ignore that and pretend its not part of the issue but its there for all to see on public domain and Dre pretending Abbas has not stated he wants the right of return for unlimited amounts of Palestinians as a condition to it not being Jewish is absurd. Its there for anyone to find on the web. As for your double standard if you think I am misquoting you just clarify it. Do you believe Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state? If that is a yes, well I will be pleased to acknowledge that is your position. Edited July 18, 2014 by Rue Quote
Argus Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 Same reason Iraq was invaded on humantarian grounds even though there were much much worse humanitarian situations all around the world. Iraq was invaded on humanitarian grounds? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) Zionists will always try to confuse the issue, which is this: they are occupying someone else's country, trying to conquer the neighbours, and killing children all the time. What do they offer their victims, ever, except death? Who but a fool would do other than fight them? Someone who actually wanted to improve things for the Palestinian people. Edited July 18, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Black Dog Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 see excerpts of Clinton notes below (link): The parties continued their talks in Taba, Egypt. They got close, but did not succeed. Arafat never said no; he just couldn’t bring himself to say yes. Additional context and the Palestinian POV here. As with the Muslim sites in Jerusalem, a decision on the right of return is not one that the Palestinian leaders can take on their own. Mr Arafat was expected to give his definitive response to the American proposals after a meeting of Arab foreign ministers in Cairo on January 4th. Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, which between them are host to 2.3m refugees, will be at this meeting. Mr Arafat knows that it will be hard to sell them a deal that requires them to accept the permanent resettlement of Palestinians—unless Israel accepts the principle of return as endorsed by the UN General Assembly in Resolution 194, passed in December 1948. If Israel were to accept that principle, say refugee leaders, their negotiators could be “flexible” on where, how, over what period and in what numbers the right of return would be exercised. “There is a world of difference between an agreement where Israel refuses to recognise the right of return, and an agreement where Israel recognises the right but insists on a mechanism to implement it,” said another Palestinian leader. But nowhere in the American proposals, say the Palestinians, is there any recognition that Israel might be even partially responsible for the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem. For the Palestinians this is simply one more denial among a litany of others: they quote old myths like Israel's former insistence that there was no such thing as a Palestinian people, or that the Palestinians were instructed by Arab leaders to leave their villages in 1948. If they are to accept a state on about 20% of historic Palestine, and recognise the rest as “the homeland of the Jewish people”, then, say the Palestinians, the time has come for Israeli denials to end and the truth to be admitted. “I am willing forgo any implementation of the right of return,” says one refugee from Balata. “But I will not accept an agreement that gives up my right of return. Israel was responsible for my exile. And it must recognise that responsibility.” Quote
dre Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 Why should the Arabs not be carving a state for the Palestinians out of their territory? Why only tiny Israel? What a stupid question. Palestinians already have a territory. Its where they live and were born. And it WAS carved out of an Arab state. Israel has no legal or just claim to ANY of it. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Black Dog Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 Why should the Arabs not be carving a state for the Palestinians out of their territory? Why only tiny Israel? Why should they, exactly? The West is either infected by self-hatred or hatred of Jews. One of those has got to be the answer here. A false dilemma, or false dichotomy, is a logical fallacy which involves presenting two opposing views, options or outcomes in such a way that they seem to be the only possibilities: that is, if one is true, the other must be false, or, more typically, if you do not accept one then the other must be accepted. The reality in most cases is that there are many in-between or other alternative options, not just two mutually exclusive ones. Quote
marcus Posted July 18, 2014 Report Posted July 18, 2014 Except when it's randomly firing rockets into populated areas. The rockets don't just happen. They're a response to Israel's provocations and attacks. It's exactly what Israel looks for to unleash their mighty American financed military arsenal. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
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