ISIS Declares Islamic State.

[eyeball]

Its splinter cells already existed. They didn't come into existence,-they already existed.All ISIS is, is a loose knit group of many terror cells each with their own leader.

You're simply talking about groups people living in the region - where they've always existed - for generations. ISIS is simply an idea, not a very good one but then you know, when people have been abused and pushed around as badly as they have you can expect them to come up with a few bad ideas along the way. We need to give them more space and time to learn or relearn how to govern themselves more appropriately - a lesson we could stand to learn too when it comes to being pushed around around and abused but we don't.

So....rinse and repeat as they say.

Edited September 13, 2014 by eyeball

[Big Guy]

... We need to give them more space and time to learn or relearn how to govern themselves more appropriately - a lesson we could stand to learn too when it comes to being pushed around around and abused but we don't.

So....rinse and repeat as they say.

I have found in the past, when discussing a conflict, I would ask myself and others as to what I (they) would do or react under similar conditions if they had been treated the same way. The answer becomes quite obvious if you equate "them" as humans with the same feelings, hurts, loves and anger that we have.

Conversely, when you do not consider them as being like us or as sub-human in some way then the comparison and understanding never comers.

According to some people (and a few members of this board) patriotism, nationalism, retribution, revenge, love, hate, pain and anger are only allowed for people like "us" and certainly not "those people".

So be it and we send more and more body bags to the Mid-East.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Big Guy

[eyeball]

No it's certainly not rocket science and it's not as simple as the lessons we learned in kindergarten but all the same, I guess you have to want to learn something for anything to sink in at all.

[Argus]

You're simply talking about groups people living in the region - where they've always existed - for generations. ISIS is simply an idea, not a very good one but then you know, when people have been abused and pushed around as badly as they have you can expect them to come up with a few bad ideas along the way. We need to give them more space and time to learn or relearn how to govern themselves more appropriately -

The West pretty much ignored Afghanistan and 'left it alone to learn how to govern themselves' and it turned into a training base for international terrorism. There seems little doubt any territory controlled by these wackos will be the same, and will produce more attacks on the West, not less.

[Rue]

Dre as uusual for some who does not read what I post, you do, but you rush through it so intent on showing me how smart you are with your knee jerk reactions and need to one up me that you prove again and again you are absolutely and utterly wrong in your assertions.

To start with, the council you refer to was not and is not ISIS and to suggest it is and therefore ISIS has been around 10 years is just asinine.

What you did was rush to Wikepedia and without thought read that this council had 6 groups including Al Quaeda and then Al Nusra are one and the same as ISIS. Wrong as always.

In fact your constant misunderstanding of the origins of terrorist organizations and how they constantly mutate is beyond stupidity because at this point all you have to do is make an effort to read and you don't.

Al Nusra is a distinct terrorist cell. It joined forces with what we now call ISIS in June 2014. It hasn't ceased to exist. It hasn't become ISIS. It is one of many cells that form ISIS,

Awwad Al Badri who many now refer to as the ISIS leader is only the head of a cell in alliance with other cells. Badr himself is from Samarra,Iraq.. He in fact took his cell and broke away fromAl Quaeda who he originally teamed up with in Iraq to fight the US appointed Shiite President of Iraq Maliki. He is from the Banu Badr clan and one of the reasons he broke fromAl Quaeda is because its leader at the time was Jordanian and his clan and many others in Iraq detest Jordanians.

You have no clue how fast various terror cells form coalitions to fight the same enemy then turn on each other. In your simplistic world, its all so simple.

Well either keep up Dre or shut up or better still for someone who does not read my posts stop because at this point your responses simply show you make things up and try bluff. Run along.

For anyone who bothers to read, they would know that Al Quaeda in Iraq if we want to call it that, began fighting Maliki the US designated President when the US withdrew in Decmber of 2011. Before that there were in fact hundreds of Sunni cells fighting Maliki and the US ooccupation forces as well as hundreds of Shiite cells and Kurd ones.

Ira is a three laye cake. At the Northern top are the Kurds, in the Middle layer are the Sunnis and at the bottom South the Shiites. Most of the oil is in the Kurd area. Iran, Turkey and Russia have been dead against a Kurdish state and assisted each other engage in slaughters of Kurds who can be found in that area and parts of Turkey and Northern Iran on th Turkish and Iraqi borders.

While that has been happening it should be also mentioned Sadaam Hussein came from a minority tribe within the greater Sunni community of Iraq.

In each of the three regions can be found cells of families who run tribes each with a patron. Just because you are a fellow Sunni does not mean you get along with your fellow Sunni klans any more than you do the Shiites or Kurds. You form temporary Sunni or Shiite alliances between tribes of the same sect but those Sunni cells or Shiite cells fighting together could turn on each other at a moment's notice as well. You get together to fight your common enemy temporarily then you disband to fight each other. That has the way it has been for thousands of years.

Israel since 1949 was just a common enemy, now for many its not as the inner Muslim war between Sunni and Shiite and been family klans rages and has superimposed itself far above any insult Israel was or is for existing in the midst of the Arab Muslim world.

In fact today's ISIS consisting of Badris cell and a hodge podge of Sunni klans from Iraq and Al Nusra like Al Quaeda is a mix of many Muslims from Chechnya,Saudi Arabia,Yemen, Sudan,Algeria,Tunisia,Morocco, Egypt, UAE, and from the West including Canada, the US, France, Britain and Germany. It attracts a wide range of Muslims all attracted to its extreme visions.

Al Quaeda in fact claims it has broken away from ISIS. Since December 2011, ISIS has grown as a mix of extremists travel to join it. It started with its major target being Maliki in Iraq and then when when a civil war erupted in Syria in March 2011 it also began fighting him as well.

ISIS is a Sunnin constellation of groups who as they are now really have only existed sinceJune 2014. Before then some of their components operated of course but had not formed the ISIS network as it is now.

ISIS is an unusual network in that the only thing that unifies it between its many Sunni cells all with their own leaders, is the common belief a SUNNI Muslim caliphate must be created to run the world.

ISIS has nothing to do with the council Dre idiotically referred to.Al Quaeda did. That council is not a terrorist opereation. Its the titular heads of certain cells who get together to discuss common interests. Its a way to meet and talk. The very word council in Arabic and in their tradition does not mean anyone is elected or has power. Its not a central command. Its a bunch of chieftains who literally sip coffee and talk.

Now the actual financing of what is called ISIS comes from oil revenues from oil site sin DaralZour, and Bagga Syria and Nih;eveh,Iraq. The oil is sold to oh you guessed it China and Russia. If the US had wanted to wipe out ISIS it would have blown up those sites.

To understand why they did not one must go back to the overthrow of Ghaddafi in Iraq. At that time Obama formed a coalition with his good Muslim Brotherhood friend Erdogan and financed and assisted Al Quaeda over throw Ghaddafi. The US and Turkey then arranged to ship all the weapons seized through Syria to Turkey to arm these "allies" prepare to overthrow Assad.

It was a deliberate poicy to cultivate Al Quaeda as a US ally to isolate and contain and offer away to counter Iran and Hezbollah who at the time the US thought was the major Muslim enemy. Obama believed beause of his Muslim Brotherhood connections (His step father and half brother) that he was allied with the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood and Erdogan and this is why he was so active in assisting them not only get rid of Moe Ghaddafi but Assad and of course support Morsi's uprising in Egypt.

The problem was while they assisted Al Quaeda attack Assai in March of 2011, they did not forsee Badr of Iraq who at the time had his Iraqi cells fighting for Al Quaeda, would turn on Obama when in December of 2011, Obama placed a Shiite puppet of Iran, Maliki as Iraqi President.

Obama thought he could ally ith Al Quaeda against Assad a Shiite puppet kept in power by Hezbollah and Iran, while at the same time siding with the Iranian Shiite puppet of Maliki in Iraq. Why? Because at the time, Erdogan was allied with Iran against the Kurds.

However Erdogan then turned on Iran when they sent Hezbollah into Syria when they promised not to. Erdogan then broke with Iran, leaving the US looking pretty stupid.

Once Badr broke his Iraqis out of Al Quaeda, to focus war on both the Shiites of Iraq who he sees as his no.1 enemy, then the Alawites of Assad in Syria who are propped by the Shiite Hezbollah and Iran, it was game over for the US. That new constellation we now call ISIS became a bunch of Sunni cells fighting Shiites everywhere and now irony of irony Obama finds himself ordering plane attacks which in fact attack the same ISIS which Iranian, Hezbollah and Shiite Iraqi troops attack on the ground. Russia of course is the champion of Syria an Iran and Hezbollah and so Obama is even assistinh the Russian interests. Russia and China are laughing. They are now extracting the majority of oil from Syria and Iraq.

Obama was over his head. Israel warned him years ago not to get into bed with the Muslim Brotherhood where Hamas came out of and ISIS whose members are joined at the hip with the Muslim Brotherhood. He was warned by them, the British, the Germans, they would turn on him. He did not listn. In fact he openly insulted, Abbas, Netanyahu and the Egyptian government who all warned him.

His decision to fund and support what is now ISIS in a move to overthrow Assad while also supporting Maliki in Iraq was pure idiocy.

There was Maliki ordering the slaughter of Sunnis in Iraq, his puppet....and he thought ISIS would support him and ignore the slaughter of their own Sunni people? How stupid was that to believe, you will fight a Shiitte puppet for the US in Syria, but not in your own country-there you will hold back?

Obama tried to have his cake and eat it too, and it blew up in his face.

The humiliation in Syria came about because there he was thinking he would get ISIS to throw Assad out and put a Sunni Muslim Brotherhood pro US ally in. The intent was clear. Throw Putin and his navy base out of Syria. This would be a US puppet not a Russian on.Look at what Putin did.

All he had to do was sit back and laugh knowing ISIS would turn on Obama as it did.

ISIS does not exist had it not been for the US placing Maliki in as President in Iraq.

You meddle and try us proxies as the US and Russia do to control zones of influence they come back to bite you like Afghanistan did to both Russia and the US, and Iraq has done now to the US but it has in the past done with Russia.

Iraq,Syria and Egypt during the 60's were puppets of the Soviet Empire.Back in the 2o's, 30'sand 40's they were puppets of the Germans, French, British.

Its interesting because on this forum Israel is always referred to as the puppet of the US but the US has always had alliances with Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the UAE and most often Egypt. It was only Obama who broke with this tradition and turned on them as well as Israel in favour of his Muslim Brotherhood.

Here is the problem right now. His coalition of Arab nations he wants to fight ISIS are all Sunni. The Shiites are laughing. Hezbollah, Iran, Russia are laughing their heads off. Does Obama think any of his constellation of Sunni nations will turn on their own people and assist their common enemy with ISIS, namely Iran and Hezbollah?

to do that Obama has to be intelligent enough to be able to replace ISIS with another Sunni group that can wage war against the Shiites for the Sunni nations. How does he do that? Al Quaeda who split from ISIS calling them crazy are not exactly moderates.

This is precisely why in his coalition he does NOT have Egypt and Jordan. Jordan needs ISIS to buffer themselves from Hezbollah and Iran who are openly hostile to and want Abdullah of Jordan killed for not backing Hamas, a dead enemy of Jordan. Hamas a Sunni terrorist group is entirely funded by Hezbollah and Iran and so are their proxy. Even though ISIS is now in Gaza, its inevitable move to replace them won't happen until they get what they want in Syria and Iraq first. Gaza is considered insignificant at this point although it should be pointed out there are huge oil deposits off the coast off of Gaza that eventually ISIS will want to finance its Muslim caliphate.

Obama's latest announcement is a last gasp,meaningles gesture to try povide a cover for Democrats facing an election this fall. He senses his foreign policy failures will sweep them out of office and so is trying now after 7 years to sound tough on Muslim terrorism to try salvage democrat votes.

Its too late, the Republicans are going to sweep in on a strong Obama backlash and a traditional Hawk very close to the strong and powerful Christian lobby in the US is going to come in riding a genuine fear of Islam extremism.

A more traditional hawkish Republican will become President and how he will try regain American reputation in the eyes of the world, particularly Putin and Arab terrorists remains to be seen.

I fear some kind of military conflict with the US in the Middle East on the ground. I fear it, because I am not sure at this point the severe damage can be simply undone with a staged military intervention say in Syria or Iraq.

I am not sure that would be in anyone's best interest.

I can also see Putin or Iran before Obama is out of office doing something major to gain power before the next stronger US President with a more united Congress comes into power.

Zip over Dre's head. He and Cyber couldn't get passed the first line. In their world you can explain such complex phenomena in one sentence.

Atta boy Dre. ISIS has been around 10 years. genius,

[Rue]

I agree with eye's reference to ISIS as an idea. That's the best way I think to describe them, A common idea that brings all kinds of Sunnis together or that idea or vision. ISIS Is for sure a direct result to reacting to Maliki in Irag and Assad in Syria. the problem is when countries not just the US but Russia and others fuel this on by providing weapons to both sides hoping their proxy wins.

The war between Muslims has gone on since its inception. To pick sides to try advocate your best interests is risky.

The days of having a true puppet you control are over. They turn on you now.

US world influence through placing CIA propped puppets in power no longer works. Putin who is trying to do the same thing in Syria, Ukraine, Georgia, etc, is going to get bit in his buttox the same way.

[Big Guy]

In 1994, a black guy uses a knife to take off the head of his white girlfriend and fillets another white guy. He's got a lot of money, gets the best defence possible and we designate him "not guilty".

In 2014, 20 years later a dark guy lops off the head of two white guys on camera. The outrage causes the USA (and Canada) to declare war and attack a couple of nations.

Go figure.

BTW, that black guy in 1994, O.J.Simpson, just converted to Islam.

There are some people on this board that will try to tell you that he was a Muslim all the time and that is what caused him to do that knife work.

And the beat goes on.

[Argus]

In 1994, a black guy uses a knife to take off the head of his white girlfriend and fillets another white guy. He's got a lot of money, gets the best defence possible and we designate him "not guilty".

In 2014, 20 years later a dark guy lops off the head of two white guys on camera. The outrage causes the USA (and Canada) to declare war and attack a couple of nations.

Go figure.

Uh, sorry, but I'm sure I'm not the only one here who thinks comparing these is idiotic. Leave aside the fact that, unlike ISIS Simpson didn't video tape himself killing them, then put it up on You Tube as ISIS has done, there's the fact he pled not guilty while ISIS flaunts its murder and butchery with considerable pride.

The only point of commonality you appear to be trying to make is that Muslim guys or those with the mentality to become Muslim, like to cut people's throats.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Argus

[Guest]

OJ Simpson wasn't trying to establish a worldwide Islamic caliphate, with the goal of either converting or executing all the infidels he came across, either. Unless it was on the coverage I didn't see. If he was, I doubt the ill fitting glove would have been enough.

[WestCoastRunner]

So tragic, another execution. A british hostage.

[On Guard for Thee]

Come on Big Guy, now you've got me agreeing with Argus. The comparison is just as he describes it.

[jbg]

So tragic, another execution. A british hostage.

Yes, and an aid worker to boot. Why is the West bothering with aid? These people enjoy killing people the same way a person in their late teens or early 20's enjoys sex. Is this what we should be aiding?

[WestCoastRunner]

Come on Big Guy, now you've got me agreeing with Argus. The comparison is just as he describes it.

I don't agree. OJ is not threatening a country. He is just a psycopath bent on killing his wife in a fit of jealous rage.

[WestCoastRunner]

Come on Big Guy, now you've got me agreeing with Argus. The comparison is just as he describes it.

oh sorry, I should have read more carefully! Except, I do beg to differ on one thing: folks here are quick to draw relationships between muslim lines.

[On Guard for Thee]

I don't get the comparison between OJ and ISIS at all. Makes no sense to me.I just saw the news for the first time today and they had this latest youtube murder. I hate to admit it but if I had an F 18 underneath me right now and was over ISIS I would have a hard time releasing the trigger.

[WestCoastRunner]

I don't get the comparison between OJ and ISIS at all. Makes no sense to me.I just saw the news for the first time today and they had this latest youtube murder. I hate to admit it but if I had an F 18 underneath me right now and was over ISIS I would have a hard time releasing the trigger.

such a strange comparison. Makes no sense to me.

[Big Guy]

When I was a youngster, I watched a lot of TV. I do remember the old "Cowboys and Indians" movies where you had those bad Indians fighting the good cowboys and soldiers. I also remember a tactic that the bad Indians used to use; They would capture a soldier, torture him a little, tie him to his horse and parade him with a few Indians in front of the cavalry while arranging a trap. The soldiers would be outraged, charging these few Indians. The Indians would then close the trap and slaughter all the soldiers.

Eventually, of course the soldiers would win because there were more of them and guns and cannon against arrows is not a very fair fight. And it is the winners who write the final story.

To-day, we have masked dark men filleting white guys on camera, basically taunting those who view the videos to come and get them. The USA (and Canada) is ready to charge into this battle having no idea who they are attacking, who are their friends and who are their enemies. One thing for sure, for every death due to "collateral damage" there will be a number of new anti-West recruits for "terrorists" in that area. Why does anybody think these videos were made and released?

Right, these terrorists who have developed a sophisticated social media network and in a few months have become a formidable fighting force are just a bunch of empty heads under black turbans. We are walking into their trap.

[Solidarity]

Yes, and an aid worker to boot. Why is the West bothering with aid? These people enjoy killing people the same way a person in their late teens or early 20's enjoys sex. Is this what we should be aiding?

Well the Syrian rebels were the 'good guys' up until their foray into Iraq and Kurdistan. They received US training in Jordan, logistical (read medical, food, transportation, safe havens) support from US allies in Jordan and Turkey, and are in possession of millions of dollars of US military kit either seized from the Iraqi's or given to them by the Gulf states (Who bought it all from the USA of course). If we treated these guys like the Taliban from the get-go there would be a lot less western exposure (ie aid workers, journalists).

[-1=e^ipi]

To-day, we have masked dark men filleting white guys on camera, basically taunting those who view the videos to come and get them. The USA (and Canada) is ready to charge into this battle having no idea who they are attacking, who are their friends and who are their enemies. One thing for sure, for every death due to "collateral damage" there will be a number of new anti-West recruits for "terrorists" in that area. Why does anybody think these videos were made and released?

Uh, no. If you listen to what ISIS is saying in their videos, they are telling Western Countries to NOT intervene. ISIS want's a power vacuum so they can solidify their control over their territories and ensure the establishment of their Caliphate. Of course, if the West intervenes then 'the evil crusaders will be invading muslims lands' which will help them get more foreign recruits.

[jbg]

If we treated these guys like the Taliban from the get-go there would be a lot less western exposure (ie aid workers, journalists).

I'm not getting your point. My point is that whoever starts beheading Westerners should meet severe consequences. Not just the threat of being brought to justice in a Federal (U.S.) court.

[Solidarity]

I'm not getting your point. My point is that whoever starts beheading Westerners should meet severe consequences. Not just the threat of being brought to justice in a Federal (U.S.) court.

My point is these guys were an obvious threat, but were portrayed as somehow different from the Taliban/Al Qaeda. There should have been no western exposure in the region, ie peacekeepers, aid workers, journalists. I don't disagree with anything you said, and I'm not saying we should try and prosecute them. I just think we should be there only be in the region with military forces if at all, its simply too dangerous. Let locals or regional actors bring in the humanitarian aid/report on the situation.

[jbg]

Fortunately for the U.S. the brand of Islam to which Obama apparently subscribes is softer than that of ISIS. It is derived from the Indonesia of his upbringing. He still does not like the U.S. or West.

"You're Fired."

Is my praise of Obama too faint?

[marcus]

Yes, and an aid worker to boot. Why is the West bothering with aid? These people enjoy killing people the same way a person in their late teens or early 20's enjoys sex. Is this what we should be aiding?

Because the guy cutting the head off is the same as the guy needing the aid. All because they both call themselves Muslim.

You have a bad habit of generalizing.

[jbg]

Because the guy cutting the head off is the same as the guy needing the aid. All because they both call themselves Muslim.

You have a bad habit of generalizing.

Thanks for the advice.

[Rue]

Yes JBG you have a bad habit of generalizing, this coming from "Marus" the name for the source of the epeated scripts on this board that do nothing but generalize and engage in negative stereotypes against anyone especially Jews who have the nerve to think they have a right to live in a state.

Right.

I personally believe if you trace back the posts is remarkable how the name of the poster changes but the script remains identical.

Now let me respond directly to you.

This forum is full of people who apologize for Muslim extremism and terrorism such as what ISIS is doing now.

You know the line. Its the West's fault.

I have stated Obama's disasterous foreign policy in supporting the Muslim Brotherhood, Erdogan, Hamas and first Al Quaeda then ISIS has come back to blow up in his face and aided the mutation of Al Quaeda to what is now called ISIS.

I directly point the finger at him and Erdogan for that mutation,.

However the fact is Muslim fundamentalist extremism and violence between Muslims existed long before these latest two idiots tried to stick their nose in and will continue long after they are gone.

The Muslim world has to look at itself, accept responsibility for its failures, its political coruption, its extremist religious views, its refusal to seperate religion from state, its use of Israelis, Kurds, Yazidis, Christians, Bahaiis, Hindus, gays, feminists as scapegoats for its hatred, intolerance and failures and its rejection of democratic and humanitarian values.

If Muslims do not want to be denigrated and cast as terrorists, they then need to speak up loudly and denounce terrorism.

Those that do, and there are Muslims that do, today get no support from the terrorist apologists on this forum. Not a peep about them and why they reject everything these Muslim terrorist apologists stand for. You will never see a Muslim come on this forum and admit he is Muslim. You do see you and me not afraid to say we are Jews. Why is that?

The Muslims I refer to denounce Hamas, ISIS, Al Quaeda, Hezbollah, any Muslim extremism. They don't mince their words. Neither do I but they won't come on this forum. Why? Why won't a Muslim admit he or she is Muslim and come on this forum and denouce Hamas or ISIS or Muslim fundamentalism?

What we do have and I suspect are some Muslim extremists on this forum who use English sounding names and engage in not so couched and coded references to blowing up Israel or the US and condoning violence.

I also believe Obama's disasterous policies empowered ISIS, Putin, Erdogan, and have caused extensive damage that has to be undone.

I believe Obama's sudden awakening that ISIS is a danger is a joke.

I believe until a strong US leader in the mold of a Teddy Roosevelt (one of my all time favourite politicians), FDR, Truman or Eisenhower is back in power, we will continue to have a world leadership vacuum fueling Muslim terrorism and Putin terrorism.

I believe the only thing preventing a full scale absolute Middle East catastrophe are the Russians and Chinese at this point wo are as addicted to oil as the West and so manipulate from behind the scenes as well holding back certain catastrophes that would impact on their access to oil.

The bottom line is JBG no one gives a flyinfg phack about Muslims or Jews, just oil.

If Muslims do not wake up and look after themselves and evolve past their inter-Muslim wars, they are doomed and they have no one but themselves to blame.

As for Israel, the same idiots on this forum who lecture Israel they must recognize terrorists and the right of terrorists to live next to them and cease to exist as Jews in a Jewish state, well they are what they are people who believe its just fine to ahve Muslim or Christian states but not one tiny Jewish one. That makes them to me, pure and simple anti-semites. They demand the world have one standard and Jews another.

This Jew says to them, one at a time and all at once, kiss my Zionist asp or should I say my Mt. Sinai. . No you will not tell me where my place is-"stateless".

I have read the bull sheeyit threads from people acting like they care about Palestinian children then in the next breath cheering on the very Hamas that deliebrately gets them killed. They are pathetic.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Rue