This week in Islam

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

But not the western media. Western media simply has little interest in covering hundreds of attacks in foreign countries by foreign people against each other every year.

And if a Christian village launches an attack against the nearest Fulani herders, and the Fulani respond in kind - does the Christian attack get mentioned?  Nope; it's portrayed in Western media and especially in places like Jihad Watch as an example of more "Muslim terrorism".

If a South African Christian group plans an attack against malls, does that make Western media?  Nope - we in Western land have to go looking for it, if we're interested.  If it was a Muslim terrorist planning an attack in a mall, anywhere in the world, it'd be in Western media and in Jihad Watch.  

Do you know who Christopher Paul Hasson is?  Without clicking on the link, I mean.

Have you heard of Elizabeth Vincent or Vincent Armstrong?

It's pretty easy to conclude that a group is a particular threat when you are only exposed to the crimes that group has committed, when there are multiple sources detailing those crimes that you can easily access, and the same crimes committed by other groups are barely mentioned, or even not mentioned at all beyond the local papers.

Quote

Obviously because they feel this group is a danger.

So, what about the fact that law enforcement in Western countries considers right-wing hate groups to be of equal, or even more danger than Islamic terror groups in Western countries?  It seems likely that law enforcement would have a handle on who poses the most threat to citizens in our country, yet people such as yourself dismiss that info, in favor of a site like Jihad Watch - which you admit is biased.  Why is that?  Could it be that its ok, in your mind, to frame Muslims as dangerous to Westerners, regardless of facts?

Edited December 1, 2019 by dialamah

[Iceni warrior]

17 minutes ago, Argus said:

But not the western media. Western media simply has little interest in covering hundreds of attacks in foreign countries by foreign people against each other every year.

 

Simply not true. Attacks carried out in Europe by Muslims never fail to make the news in America yet I'd be prepared to bet that the recent car bombs carried out by the Provisional IRA are not even known about by most people over there or even here in the UK.

 

Quote

The New IRA has claimed responsibility for an attempt to murder a police officer with a car bomb in Northern Ireland last week.

The republican dissident group said in a statement on Thursday night that it planted the device that was discovered under the officer’s car at Shandon Park golf club in Belfast on Saturday. It was defused without causing casualties.

“We were unlucky this time but we only have to be lucky once,” said the statement, which was passed to the Irish News using a codeword.

The statement underlined the New IRA’s determination to continue its terror campaign despite a backlash over the killing of the journalist Lyra McKee in Derry in April.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jun/07/new-ira-claims-responsibility-for-car-bomb-attempt

[scribblet]

I used to think I would like to live in the U.K. for at least a year, see all the historical sights etc. I even lookd into a house exchange -  but not any more.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-caught-camera-launching-knife-20965291?fbclid=IwAR1kJ56n-WQcbS6JmUOImlq93Mesx4gFzq1bPamjJJ-348ETDXt1BeVN1No

A man was filmed launching a sickening knife rampage on commuters outside Manchester train station.

Mahdi Mohamud raised the fillet knife and walked up behind unsuspecting James Knox, screaming "Allahu Akbar!" and "Long live the Caliphate!" as he stabbed his victim repeatedly in the back, shoulders and head.

 

Not to mention violent London gangs

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1208916/London-news-british-transport-police-essex-white-heart-lane-finsbury-park-UK-knife-crime?fbclid=IwAR1_35DVJoIt-wHVkklHswkz2S6eQ6HSdfG_1Nxcf9qwtD6nTWTZMSV1rhc

 

 

[dialamah]

12 minutes ago, Argus said:

You don't think that might be the influence of Islam and its adherents on local culture and values?

Christianity predates Islam; much of Islam was taken from Christian and Jewish practices of the time.  My personal opinion is that it doesn't matter if a region is Christian, Muslim or one of the indigenuous religions that pre-date both Christianity and Islam - many (if not all) of these practices are cultural and 'infect' everybody to some degree.  The only reason these practices look strictly "Muslim" to you is because that's how it's been presented to us by the media we have here in the West.   Plus you suffer from xenophobia, so your biases are not just against Muslims but anyone who doesn't look "Canadian" enough.

[scribblet]

The fact that the two deadliest attacks upon the U.K. not too long ago where at the hands of Islamic terrorists  is reality.   So when these apologists for Islam get tired of continually telling us that  jihadists are simply lying about their religious motivations, they then try to toss ‘see, look what he did’ in a desperate attempt to de-emphasize the danger posed by Islamic terrorism.

Is this because they genuinely care about people worrying  unnecessarily, or to make sure that the focus on the real threat is taken away, in other words, a tactical attempt to prioritize the protection of a malignant repressive religion/ideology over the safety and well being of the rest of us.    I go for the latter.

In fact, people are dying because of' progressive sympathy' for Islamic terrorists .

Edited December 1, 2019 by scribblet

[Iceni warrior]

23 minutes ago, scribblet said:

I used to think I would like to live in the U.K. for at least a year, see all the historical sights etc. I even lookd into a house exchange -  but not any more.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-caught-camera-launching-knife-20965291?fbclid=IwAR1kJ56n-WQcbS6JmUOImlq93Mesx4gFzq1bPamjJJ-348ETDXt1BeVN1No

A man was filmed launching a sickening knife rampage on commuters outside Manchester train station.

Mahdi Mohamud raised the fillet knife and walked up behind unsuspecting James Knox, screaming "Allahu Akbar!" and "Long live the Caliphate!" as he stabbed his victim repeatedly in the back, shoulders and head.

 

Not to mention violent London gangs

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1208916/London-news-british-transport-police-essex-white-heart-lane-finsbury-park-UK-knife-crime?fbclid=IwAR1_35DVJoIt-wHVkklHswkz2S6eQ6HSdfG_1Nxcf9qwtD6nTWTZMSV1rhc

 

 

So would the fact that the US has a homocide rate 4 or 5 times higher put you off visiting there?

The UK's homicide rate is nearly half than that of Canada btw.

This is the danger of reading sensational media like the Express. It really doesn't give an accurate idea of what a country is like.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Iceni warrior

[Argus]

39 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

So you are open minded enough to see that IRA terrorism was politically motivated. Why would you not have the same open mind when it comes to Islamic terrorism?

Why do you disbelief what the terrorists themselves say? This came out a couple of years ago in an online magazine ISIS put out. Have you read it? It's titled "Why we hate you and why we fight you."

In the new issue of ISIS’ English-language propaganda magazine Dabiq, the group makes its position on the role of Western foreign policy in the Middle East abundantly clear: it is a "secondary" factor.

In a piece entitled “Why We Hate You & Why We Fight You,” the group sets out six points explaining the justifications for their hatred of the West. It mentions, in order, the West’s disbelief in Islam, the prevalence of secularism, atheism, ‘transgressions’ against Islam, military operations, and territorial incursions.

1. Because you are disbelievers

"We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers; you reject the oneness of Allah – whether you realize it or not – by making partners for Him in worship, you blaspheme against Him, claiming that He has a son, you fabricate lies against His prophets and messengers, and you indulge in all manner of devilish practices. It is for this reason that we were commanded to openly declare our hatred for you and our enmity towards you."

And for those who think it's all because of our actions in the middle east, they make it clear that that really isn't important.

What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred, this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list. The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam. Even if you were to pay jizyah and live under the authority of Islam in humiliation, we would continue to hate you. No doubt, we would stop fighting you then as we would stop fighting any disbelievers who enter into a covenant with us, but we would not stop hating you.

 

http://clarionproject.org/factsheets-files/islamic-state-magazine-dabiq-fifteen-breaking-the-cross.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by Argus

[dialamah]

12 minutes ago, scribblet said:

progressive sympathy' for Islamic terrorists .

I have no sympathy for Islamic terrorists.  I have sympathy for the innocent, non-violent Muslims people like you, Goddess, Argus, DoP etc., want to lump in with the Islamic terrorists.  

[Argus]

6 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

So would the fact that the US has a homocide rate 4 or 5 times higher put you off visiting there?

It would put me off visiting Black areas, perhaps.

[Argus]

Just now, dialamah said:

I have no sympathy for Islamic terrorists.  I have sympathy for the innocent, non-violent Muslims people like you, Goddess, Argus, DoP etc., want to lump in with the Islamic terrorists.  

Uhm, no. I merely don't believe we should be importing hundreds of thousands of people without any background checks or even interviews on their beliefs from a population where 50%-60%-70% or more believe in death for apostasy and blaspheme, support death for adultery, hate Jews and believe infidels must bow before Islam.

Regardless of how 'peaceful' most might be.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Christianity predates Islam; much of Islam was taken from Christian and Jewish practices of the time.

More than half the Islamic holy books concern themselves about how Muslims should treat/deal with unbelievers (and little of it is kind). I don't think they got THAT from the bible.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Argus

[Argus]

26 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

Simply not true. Attacks carried out in Europe by Muslims never fail to make the news in America

Perhaps but most such attacks are not in Europe. Because most Muslims are not in Europe.

26 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

Yet I'd be prepared to bet that the recent car bombs carried out by the Provisional IRA are not even known about by most people over there or even here in the UK.

Because the bomb never went off and thus no one was killed.

[Iceni warrior]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

It would put me off visiting Black areas, perhaps.

How about a predominantly white country music festival in Las Vegas?

[Marocc]

On 11/30/2019 at 2:58 AM, Argus said:

Let's face facts here. We're all pretty much conditioned by now to expect that when someone goes berserk on the street or in a shopping mall and stabs people at random it's probably a Muslim.

You mean you with many others have pretty much done your best to condition some poor souls into expecting that?

On 11/30/2019 at 3:32 PM, scribblet said:

A convicted terrorist is released from prison every week in the UK - Meanwhile, Mayor Khan assigned 900 officers to ‘hate crime’ duty, which requires monitoring “speech

You think speech is entirely insignificant even though it can lead to the worst crimes?

Mu`adh bin Jabal (radiallahu anh) reported: I asked the Messenger of Allah (salallahu 'alayhi wa sallam): "Inform me of an act which will cause me to enter Jannah and keep me far from Hell.'' He (salallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) replied, "You have asked me about a matter of great importance, but it is easy for one for whom Allah makes it easy.'' He added, "Worship Allah, associate nothing with Him in worship, offer As-Salat (the prayer), pay the Zakat, observe Saum (fasting) during Ramadan and perform Hajj (pilgrimage) to the House of Allah, if you can afford it.'' He (salallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) further said, "Shall I not guide you to the gates of goodness? Fasting is a screen (from Hell), charity extinguishes (i.e., removes) the sins as water extinguishes fire, and standing in prayers by a slave of Allah during the last third part of the night.'' Then he recited: "Their sides forsake their beds, to invoke their Rubb in fear and hope, and they spend (in charity in Allah's Cause) out of what We have bestowed on them. No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do.'' (32:17,18) Then he added, "Shall I tell you of the root of the matter, its pillar and its highest point?'' I replied: "Yes! Certainly, O Prophet of Allah.'' He said, "The root of this matter (foundation) is Islam, its pillar (mainstay is) As-Salat (the prayer) and its highest point is Jihad (fighting in the Cause of Allah).'' Then he asked, "Shall I tell you of that which holds all these things?'' I said: "Yes, O Messenger of Allah.'' So he took hold of his tongue and said, "Keep this in control.'' I asked: "O Messenger of Allah! Shall we really be accounted for what we talk about?'' He replied, "May your mother lose you! People will be thrown on their faces into the Hell on account of their tongues.'

 

On 11/30/2019 at 12:31 PM, DogOnPorch said:

 

Why?

The name is the first problem. What jihad watch? The name of the site says, "I know nothing about Islam," the content tries to say, "this is Islam."

[Argus]

Just now, Iceni warrior said:

How about a predominantly white country music festival in Las Vegas?

I don't like country music so yeah.

But aside from the rare outrage like that, the majority of violence in the US takes place in Black districts with Black victims and Black assailants. And it grossly distorts US crime statistics.

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Marocc said:

You mean you with many others have pretty much done your best to condition some poor souls into expecting that?

You blame us for our reaction to Islamic violence rather than Islamic violence for inciting us? Just how much 'incitement' do you think is required given the drumbeat of Islamic terrorism over the years?

[Right To Left]

On 11/27/2019 at 12:47 PM, Argus said:

This is simply bullshit. The dislike of Islam is derived in part from a constant barrage (no pun intended) of Islamic violence throughout the world which has persisted for decades, Islamic terrorist attacks here, and what is known of Islamic doctrine with regards to their attitudes towards women, gays, Jews, and non-Muslims. Not simply what is known of the 'doctrine' but that this doctrine is mainstream in most of the Muslim world. In addition, of course, your belief that to know Muslims it to love them is nonsense. Many who have had experience with Muslims have not come away very impressed, including myself. I have met few, including my next door neighbour, who have much interest in integrating with Canada's culture. Their culture, their values, are derived from Islam, and they feel a sense of brotherhood with other Muslims more than with infidel Canadians.

Naturally, you don't consider European colonization of almost the entire world (joined and superseded by the American Empire) to be a barrage of Christian violence throughout the world, even though religion was one of the justifications...along with inherent racial supremacy over "backward" people who can't or don't deserve to rule themselves.

Islamophobia would be more credible if not for the many religious and ethnic non-Arab minorities who lived in their own villages mostly undisturbed until the 20th century. And what really blows apart your case is that when the US and Euro colonialists choose sides in the Arab and Muslim realms, they pick the most extreme theocrats who also believe in strict ruling hierarchies. 

I don't know how familiar you are with Mid-East history of the past century, but after a mass Arab uprising against the Ottoman Turks was unleashed during the first world war.....catalyzed to some extent by T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia), the leader of most of the Arab tribes (Hussein) was stabbed in the back, not only by the French and British....who had already decided how to divide up the former Ottoman Empire, but also favoured ruthless desert dictator - Ibn Saud over Hussein, with the British giving the Saud clan cannons and other heavy guns to fight and drive out Hussein's forces. All this mostly because the Brits and Americans decided that Hussein was too much of a nationalist...and would not have just handed over tracts of land for oil development and he was too progressive as well.  Like today, after all the crapping about savage Arabs and/or Muslims, the western opportunists seek out and enable the extremists, because they have the same motivations to accumulate money and power!

As a side note, many rightwing Christo-fascist Americans are shocked to discover that there is a dwindling Christian Palestinian population which is persecuted by the State of Israel that these Christian Zionists loudly support and want more and more money given to. US Forces did nothing to protect the estimated one million Iraqi Christians after they unleashed anarchy in Iraq when they overthrew Saddam and completely obliterated the Baath Party Administration, rather than using these government structures to set up a new government.........."mistakes were made" as Dubya later said!

 

[Marocc]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

You blame us for our reaction to Islamic violence rather than Islamic violence for inciting us?

Yes. It isn't really violence inciting you. Not physical violence.

Sometimes when you react to things strongly you should ask yourself, who is profiting of my reaction? Much of the money made in the world is made out of reactions. Control is also seized through reactions.

 

[Right To Left]

On 11/27/2019 at 9:11 AM, bcsapper said:

Most everyone is nice.  Muslims are no exception.

The purpose of this thread is not to demonize Muslims, but rather, to discuss and criticize a mind boggling situation where we are in the 21st century, and countries still have laws based on religion and the death penalty on the books for things like blasphemy and apostasy, without those in opposition reverting to said, blinkered "demonizing" argument.  I always thought that criticism of right wing conservative religious nutcases would find much agreement on the left, and it does, except for one particularly nasty bunch.  I still struggle to figure that out.

As for a religious trigger for terrorism, if you've never considered a suicide belt yourself, you're unlikely to get it.  I know I don't.

 

Note that with all the talk of a Muslim guy with a beard going on a knifing attack on London Bridge, apparently he couldn't get a real suicide vest either! And yet this is story was overrunning the MSM while other shootings and knife attacks in England have gone without more than a notice in local media....and why is that?

[Marocc]

12 minutes ago, Argus said:

I don't like country music so yeah.

But aside from the rare outrage like that, the majority of violence in the US takes place in Black districts with Black victims and Black assailants. And it grossly distorts US crime statistics.

(ignoring the non-existent statistics presented) You are aware that people of various ethnic backgrounds are citizens of USA, right? White men didn't just evolve out of apes there.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

Note that with all the talk of a Muslim guy with a beard going on a knifing attack on London Bridge, apparently he couldn't get a real suicide vest either! And yet this is story was overrunning the MSM while other shootings and knife attacks in England have gone without more than a notice in local media....and why is that?

I don't know.  How many times have we seen knife attacks on London Bridge by guys wearing fake suicide belts?

Real enough at the time to get him shot dead. 

I can see why you're bored with such repetition...

[Right To Left]

On 11/27/2019 at 11:39 AM, Goddess said:

What is wrong or immoral about regulating entry into a country?

Your experience would be wrong in my case.  I lived in a predominantly Muslim neighbourhood and saw some things first-hand - including the burka covered women who were barely allowed to leave their houses and when they were - got cuffed across the back of their heads as they went to the car.  Watched little girls in burkas and headcoverings try to play outside in the hot summer wearing jeans and long sleeve shirts, while little boys played merrily in shorts and t-shirts (and vandalized/trashed everything in sight. When the female property manager got after them, they told her that their father told them they do not have to listen to women.)  The little girls don't last long outside in the heat, all covered up. I have an issue with a religion that finds 5 year old girls soooooo sexy, that they believe they need to be covered up at all times.  I have worked with Muslims and see them regularly.  I have been assaulted by one.  I have been screamed at, I have been shoved because I handed some food tickets to a Muslim wife instead of giving them to her 4 year old son.  I was near the area and got caught up in the dragnet where the Muslim guy with the ISIS flag in his car ran down pedestrians and stabbed a police officer.  I watched in horror while a  mob of Muslims on the internet attacked an Israeli girl - telling her how they wanted to kill her and desecrate her corpse.  Through working with cult survivors, I came into contact with quite a few Muslims who also wanted to leave their religion but were afraid and needed help.  Do you know why they were afraid?  Because Islam kills those who leave.  Some were afraid because they were gay and feared for their life - there is no tolerance for homosexuals in Islam - Dia is being dishonest in that, and she knows it.

I dont' see that Islam is producing quality people, making their lives better or the world a better place.  I am not saying this is "ALL" Muslims.  But in general - I don't find them to be a happy, peaceful bunch.  It's odd to me that people like you and Dia support so strongly a group that does all the above things, AND then join the group in  harrassing and abusing, denying and discounting, labeling as Islamophobes and racists - those who have been mistreated by the religion.

If you live in a Muslim country...especially one like Saudi Arabia...which could not exist or function without US support, that is your choice! But in the mid-sized city here in Canada with a large and growing Muslim population, I don't see very many women wearing burqas nor are there very many differences in the ways Muslim immigrants interact compared with other immigrants.

[dialamah]

41 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I think they are.  Both in numbers and acts.  I often bring up the fact that entire countries have their laws based on Islam, and the Humanist report I posted a few pages back does support my assertion that they are the worst of religions when it comes to the oppression of freedom with regard to expression and religion. 

Yes, it is hard to tell if the countries in question would be any different if they didn't have Islam as their "State" religion.  In countries that claim Christianity as it's State religion (not many), rights of women and minorities run the gamut from pretty poor to pretty good. 

The Kingdom of Tonga is an interesting situation:  traditionally, women held high status, but as Christianity has become more firmly entrenched in their society, women's rights and statuses have declined.  This is probably not the case for all countries where Christianity has taken over, but I do believe that the more secular a country is, the more likely it is that gender equality and human rights will be supported.

Quote

With regard to acts, there's a lot of nastiness on the planet right now, but one of the goals of ISIS was to terrify opposition by sheer level of brutality.

That is ISIS, and not Muslims.  The majority of Muslims disapprove of ISIS and say they do not represent Islamic teachings.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Yes, it is hard to tell if the countries in question would be any different if they didn't have Islam as their "State" religion.  In countries that claim Christianity as it's State religion (not many), rights of women and minorities run the gamut from pretty poor to pretty good. 

The Kingdom of Tonga is an interesting situation:  traditionally, women held high status, but as Christianity has become more firmly entrenched in their society, women's rights and statuses have declined.  This is probably not the case for all countries where Christianity has taken over, but I do believe that the more secular a country is, the more likely it is that gender equality and human rights will be supported.

That is ISIS, and not Muslims.  The majority of Muslims disapprove of ISIS and say they do not represent Islamic teachings.

Yes, I would certainly never argue that any religion has raised, or even held steady the status of women.  I'm sure that you are right with regards secular countries.

With regard to ISIS, they are the worst Islam has to offer.  My point was that they are worse than the worst any other religion has to offer.  Because they expressely wanted to be.

Againg, it's proportionality.  I'm sure you could find evil acts by Christian groups, just as you can find them oppressing women. 

 

[DogOnPorch]

41 minutes ago, Marocc said:

 

 

The name is the first problem. What jihad watch? The name of the site says, "I know nothing about Islam," the content tries to say, "this is Islam."

 

You're free to lie to the dirty kafir.