This week in Islam

[Iceni warrior]

On 11/27/2019 at 2:53 PM, DogOnPorch said:

...as for the rest of your post.

You're seriously worried about how Christianity treats women while being an unflinching supporter of the misogynistic cult of Islam?

Oakie-Doakie...

It's possible to be worried about both.

[Guest]

 

3 hours ago, Iceni warrior said:

It's possible to be worried about both.

Proportionally?

[Argus]

10 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

That's not enough.  Are they telling the accurate story, the whole story, and are they vilifying someone ?

I could publish 'Jew Watch' and only publicize crimes by Jews... what does that do, do you think ?

If I wanted to just publicize crimes by Muslims I could put at least one or two in every day just from my own city newspaper. The only ones which generally get publicized here are terrorist attacks or something else outrageous like honor killings or other stuff inspired by the deeply misogynistic, antisemitic and religiously bigoted values espoused by Islam.

[Argus]

16 hours ago, dialamah said:

Jihad Watch is not a credible source.

Jihad watch almost always lists the mainstream media source it gets information from. And in any event, you can always look up a given attack listed.

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by Argus

[Argus]

As far as I can check out this actually is the father of a victim and he actually did post these. Though I can't absolutely confirm it.

 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Argus said:

As far as I can check out this actually is the father of a victim and he actually did post these. Though I can't absolutely confirm it.

 

That's actually a very selfish attitude.  "My son's already dead so let's not do anything that might stop someone else's kid being killed."

I understand he's grieving.  That doesn't stop him being wrong.

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by bcsapper
Removed unnecessary characterization

[dialamah]

14 hours ago, Argus said:

Jihad watch almost always lists the mainstream media source it gets information from. And in any event, you can always look up a given attack listed.

When you say that certain news media in Canada is "Liberal", what do you mean exactly?  That it doesn't post real news stories? No, you mean that the content they choose, the wording they choose, the viewpoint expressed is biased toward liberal ideologies.   Same with Jihad Watch - the news stories they focus on, the wording they use, their viewpoint is extremely anti-Muslim.   That is why it is not a credible source.   It's no more credible than Breitbart for 'unbiased' reporting of mainstream media, or of any information about Islam.

[scribblet]

There's an article here which 'progressives' won't like but it's about time somebody spoke up about the sentencing.  Did you know that six of London Bridge terrorist Usman Khan's fellow Stock Exchange bomb plotters have also been freed from prison since 2012 and are walking the streets...   unfrigging believable, yet 'progressives' including the victim's father doesn't want it. 

There's a piece here by an English writer that 'progressives' won't like but it speaks to the issue and IMO is right on when it says that the majority of people want stiffer sentences for terrorists and the like.
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/11/30/london-bridge-terror-the-good-the-bad-and-the-shameful/
Many more will die

There is still no appetite in the British Establishment to deal comprehensively with the home-grown Muslim terrorist threat. This is clear at almost every level – what our politicians, both Labour and Conservative, are saying; what our senior police are saying (many of them over promoted no-talents who only got the jobs because they pushed the right ‘diversity’ or ‘sexuality’ buttons; how our judicial system is handling the problem. Look at how concertedly our political class – with the collusion of the media, especially the BBC – sought to play down the Manchester Arena bombing when young girls were quite deliberately targeted, and crippled or killed by a Muslim suicide bomber. Nothing has changed since. On a tactical level, yes, of course the police and intelligence services are trying to keep tabs on terror plots; of course, they respond when things do kick off. Strategically, though, the current, unwritten policy is – ‘Let’s accept a few terrorist deaths are going to happen now and again. Better this than to take any condign measures that might be deemed Islamophobic.’ Till then, we are on our own. Sure the police administered the coup de grace yesterday. But it was the great British public – NOT the authorities – which was largely responsible for preventing yesterday’s death toll from being higher.

Our legal system is allowing dangerous terrorists to roam the streets

[dialamah]

15 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Proportionally?

 The media rarely reports on crimes carried out by Christians - especially terror related ones, because they happen in other countries.   Western media does cover many of the attacks carried out by Muslims in other countries, while making simplistic assumptions about the situation - most often blaming Muslims.   In Nigeria, Muslim and Christian groups attack each other, but we only hear about Muslims attacking Christians, feeding the idea that Muslims are always the aggressor and want to eliminate other groups. In fact, these groups aren't even fighting over religion, they're fighting over resources.

I, personally, can't say if the terror engaged in by Muslims worldwide is significantly greater than that carried out by Christians worldwide, because there are too many unknowns.  I can say, thanks to reports provided by governments in the West, that right-wing terror attacks occur at a higher rate than Islamic terror attacks, but the Islamic terror attacks are the ones who get the eyeballs and media attention.

 

[Iceni warrior]

9 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 The media rarely reports on crimes carried out by Christians - especially terror related ones, because they happen in other countries.   Western media does cover many of the attacks carried out by Muslims in other countries, while making simplistic assumptions about the situation - most often blaming Muslims.   In Nigeria, Muslim and Christian groups attack each other, but we only hear about Muslims attacking Christians, feeding the idea that Muslims are always the aggressor and want to eliminate other groups. In fact, these groups aren't even fighting over religion, they're fighting over resources.

I, personally, can't say if the terror engaged in by Muslims worldwide is significantly greater than that carried out by Christians worldwide, because there are too many unknowns.  I can say, thanks to reports provided by governments in the West, that right-wing terror attacks occur at a higher rate than Islamic terror attacks, but the Islamic terror attacks are the ones who get the eyeballs and media attention.

 

For certain you can say that more people in the UK have been murdered by Catholic terrorists.

The difference is that after an IRA atrocity it was always the political aims which were blamed not the religious ideology.

This is not the same when it comes to ISIS inspired attacks.

Same with reporting cases of child abuse. Jimmy Saville's faith (if he even had one) was never brought up.

Even when the many cases of child abuse within the Catholic church are reported on it is the conspiracy of silence amongst the church's hierachy which is mentioned, not the Catholic church's ideology.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Iceni warrior

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 The media rarely reports on crimes carried out by Christians - especially terror related ones, because they happen in other countries.   Western media does cover many of the attacks carried out by Muslims in other countries, while making simplistic assumptions about the situation - most often blaming Muslims.   In Nigeria, Muslim and Christian groups attack each other, but we only hear about Muslims attacking Christians, feeding the idea that Muslims are always the aggressor and want to eliminate other groups. In fact, these groups aren't even fighting over religion, they're fighting over resources.

I, personally, can't say if the terror engaged in by Muslims worldwide is significantly greater than that carried out by Christians worldwide, because there are too many unknowns.  I can say, thanks to reports provided by governments in the West, that right-wing terror attacks occur at a higher rate than Islamic terror attacks, but the Islamic terror attacks are the ones who get the eyeballs and media attention.

 

I would imagine that if we consider worldwide terror (why would we not?) Islamic terrorism would far outstrip any terror crimes by Christians.  Especially if Muslim v Muslim violence is considered.

Of course, if you count concentration camps and pogroms then Muslims are by far the worst victims right now too. 

But the question was with regard to the treatment of women.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

When you say that certain news media in Canada is "Liberal", what do you mean exactly?  That it doesn't post real news stories? No, you mean that the content they choose, the wording they choose, the viewpoint expressed is biased toward liberal ideologies.   Same with Jihad Watch - the news stories they focus on, the wording they use, their viewpoint is extremely anti-Muslim.   That is why it is not a credible source.   It's no more credible than Breitbart for 'unbiased' reporting of mainstream media, or of any information about Islam.

And yet you consider those liberal sites I mention as being credible.

The opinions and attitudes on a site like Jihadwatch are known and taken into account. What they are useful for is in compiling incidents which largely escape notice of the world media. Mainstream media has a decidedly liberal agenda in lauding multiculturalism, inclusiveness, equality and immigration, and it deliberately downplays a lot of stuff which does not fit with that agenda.

 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

For certain you can say that more people in the UK have been murdered by Catholic terrorists.

The difference is that after an IRA atrocity it was always the political aims which were blamed not the religious ideology.

This is not the same when it comes to ISIS inspired attacks.

Same with reporting cases of child abuse. Jimmy Saville's faith (if he even had one) was never brought up.

Even when the many cases of child abuse within the Catholic church are reported on it is the conspiracy of silence amongst the church's hierachy which is mentioned, not the Catholic church's ideology.

Actually, Normans.  No, Romans!

I don't think anyone would argue that the primary goal of the IRA was a Catholic state.  It was a united Ireland.  They were a left wing organization and any Ireland led by Sinn Fein would probably be less religiously influenced that the current one.

As an Ex Catholic, I can't remember anything about child abuse in the Catechism.  Of course, I ditched them a long time ago.  Still, I think the focus on the way the church dealt with the issue is justified.

 

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

But the question was with regard to the treatment of women.

Missed that, thought you were on about the London Bridge attack.

Treatment of women, yes - bad in Muslim majority countries.  Also, bad in Christian majority countries in the same region.  Bad in India, too - neither Muslim nor Christian majority.

There's a documentary series on Netlflix hosted by Christiane Amanpour; one of the episodes is about the City of Accra, in the Christian nation of Ghana.  Because it's "tradition", Christian Ghanian men can have more than one wife (supported by the Christian church), arranged marriages are not uncommon; in 2011, 6% of girls married were under 15 and an additional 7% were between 15 and 19; currently Unicef says 25% of girls are married before they are 18.  Honor killings and selling girls into slavery to atone for a family's offenses are "traditions" still practiced.  Traditionally, education and positions of power have not been considered appropriate for women, but steps have been taken to address that, and more girls are getting educated, and more women are taking part in politics.   The situation for women is slowly improving in this Christian-majority country, but they still have a ways to go, especially in rural areas.   

We read about these kinds of things in Muslim-majority countries all the time, but rarely about Christian-majority countries.  This is why I object to the "Muslims/Islam" is the worst narrative - given that most people are completely unaware of all the breadth and width of Christian behavior, sanctioned and supported by Christian leaders, around the world.  Islam/Muslim might be the largest populations in these areas of the world, but the Christian populations aren't as different as people assume.  Islam and Christianity are cut from the same cloth, and where they can get away with it, Christians are every bit as misogynistic, violent and "backward" as the most fundamentalist Muslim.

[Argus]

41 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 The media rarely reports on crimes carried out by Christians - especially terror related ones, because they happen in other countries.   Western media does cover many of the attacks carried out by Muslims in other countries,

It doesn't cover most attacks in other countries. Period. There are so many of them, after all. Now according to another site you won't like which keeps track of such things there have been over 1600 Islamic inspired attacks this year alone in 52 countries. It's kind of hard to put all that into the western media, so only a small tithe gets noticed. On the other hand, a Christian terrorist attack is something like a 'man bites dog' story and would tend to get more, not less overage than it deserves. Besides, it plays into the 'woke' narrative of western media that all religions are the same.

41 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I, personally, can't say if the terror engaged in by Muslims worldwide is significantly greater than that carried out by Christians worldwide, because there are too many unknowns.

That's crap. Everyone knows the terrorism is coming from the religion founded by a violent warrior prince who cut people's heads off for refusing to embrace him as prophet.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=2019

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Missed that, thought you were on about the London Bridge attack.

Treatment of women, yes - bad in Muslim majority countries.  Also, bad in Christian majority countries in the same region.  Bad in India, too - neither Muslim nor Christian majority.

There's a documentary series on Netlflix hosted by Christiane Amanpour; one of the episodes is about the City of Accra, in the Christian nation of Ghana.  Because it's "tradition", Christian Ghanian men can have more than one wife (supported by the Christian church), arranged marriages are not uncommon; in 2011, 6% of girls married were under 15 and an additional 7% were between 15 and 19; currently Unicef says 25% of girls are married before they are 18.  Honor killings and selling girls into slavery to atone for a family's offenses are "traditions" still practiced.  Traditionally, education and positions of power have not been considered appropriate for women, but steps have been taken to address that, and more girls are getting educated, and more women are taking part in politics.   The situation for women is slowly improving in this Christian-majority country, but they still have a ways to go, especially in rural areas.   

We read about these kinds of things in Muslim-majority countries all the time, but rarely about Christian-majority countries.  This is why I object to the "Muslims/Islam" is the worst narrative - given that most people are completely unaware of all the breadth and width of Christian behavior, sanctioned and supported by Christian leaders, around the world.  Islam/Muslim might be the largest populations in these areas of the world, but the Christian populations aren't as different as people assume.  Islam and Christianity are cut from the same cloth, and where they can get away with it, Christians are every bit as misogynistic, violent and "backward" as the most fundamentalist Muslim.

Yes, such barbarism will get no support from me.  But that's why I said proportionally.  I would never argue that Islam is the only religion capable of evil.  Just that they are the worst.

 

After all,

Edited December 1, 2019 by bcsapper
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction - Blaise Pascal

[Argus]

40 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

For certain you can say that more people in the UK have been murdered by Catholic terrorists.

The difference is that after an IRA atrocity it was always the political aims which were blamed not the religious ideology.

Uh, it WAS the political aims. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of history knows the invasion of Ireland by England started the mess. And it's quite true religion was a thing back then in the way the English treated the Irish. No question. But that had faded, at least on the part of Britain, by the time of The Troubles. It still existed among the Northern Irish Protestants but more as a defensive mechanism and fear of the Catholics wanting to tear them away from the UK.

40 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

This is not the same when it comes to ISIS inspired attacks.

The IRA was roundly condemned by the Catholic Church, and was defiantly Marxist. It did not, as far as I can recall, ever use the bible to justify its behaviour nor did its members ever present themselves as warring on behalf of Catholicism or the pope or anything else religious. ISIS is entirely different in that their entire reason for existence was to form a Muslim caliphate and cleanse the holy lands of infidels.

40 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said:

Same with reporting cases of child abuse. Jimmy Saville's faith (if he even had one) was never brought up.

There are perverts in every race and profession. No one associates them with a particular faith or culture when they act as individuals. When you have big groups of them (10-15-20) acting together, though, and then multiple such groups all across a country, and they're all members of a particular race and religion, and they all act out against young girls who are NOT members of that race and religion, then it becomes pretty bloody obvious that there is a religious/cultural element at work.

 

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

The opinions and attitudes on a site like Jihadwatch are known and taken into account.

    Sure they are.

 

Quote

What they are useful for is in compiling incidents which largely escape notice of the world media.  

I thought you were just claiming that the links provided by Jihad Watch were from the worldwide, mainstream media.  So which is it - accurate stores taken from credible media, or stuff found that the MSM media doesn't cover?

And, why would anyone want to compile evidence of crimes from only a single group?   Especially when the people carrying  out the crimes are a minority of that group?  Why wouldn't they, at least, compile evidence of both crimes and -- I dunno -- "normal" behavior?".  That other one, "Clarion" is quite anti-Muslim, but at least they regularly provide evidence of the "other side 

If a site is only 'compiling' the crimes of Musims, then that is a frame-up.  If you want to frame Muslims as criminals, then Jihad Watch is the place to go.   If you want to even pretend to have an unbiased POV, then Jihad Watch shouldn't be on your list of sources.

Edited December 1, 2019 by dialamah

[Argus]

Just now, dialamah said:

I thought you were just claiming that the links provided by Jihad Watch were from the worldwide, mainstream media.

But not the western media. Western media simply has little interest in covering hundreds of attacks in foreign countries by foreign people against each other every year.

Just now, dialamah said:

And, why would anyone want to compile evidence of crimes from only a single group? 

Obviously because they feel this group is a danger.

[scribblet]

Apologists for Islamic terrorism will always downplay the fact that  war has been declared on the West and Western values,  in our own countries as political Islam is on the rise,.

Boris Johnson has promised to end early release of terrorists - and rightly so.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7742411/BORIS-JOHNSON-end-early-release-terrorists-violent-offenders.html?fbclid=IwAR0E0CcTQGpG-b_XRQ4aiItt898Te_FznlPnUhopLCCxDBIGXE7Cv46jcxE

 

 

[dialamah]

8 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

  I would never argue that Islam is the only religion capable of evil.  Just that they are the worst.

Are they?  If the Christians in the MENA area, whether a minority in a Muslim country or a majority in their own country, are treating women about the same as Muslims, and carrying out terror attacks on other people in their area, how can Muslims be "worse" while doing the same?   Is it because Muslims are also targetting Western nations in terror attacks?  

Edited December 1, 2019 by dialamah

[scribblet]

Yes they are.    Australia is worried about the next Islamic attack there as three terrorists will be sentenced for their failed plot to massacre scores of innocent Australians on Christmas Day in 2016.

https://9now.nine.com.au/a-current-affair/melbourne-terror-plotters-christmas-to-be-sentenced-a-current-affair/25f43465-286c-430b-b10a-a2369a51db44?ocid=Social-ACA&fbclid=IwAR3claMrKMKOxDet0p_g5WGoZFPKFYG4Q-tuSGZh1b8q3bsBuXyxcVC18Tg

 

[Guest]

Just now, dialamah said:

Are they?  If the Christians in the MENA area, whether a minority in a Muslim country or a majority in their own country, are treating women about the same as Muslims, and carrying out terror attacks on other people in their area, how can Muslims be "worse" while doing the same?   Is it because Muslims are also targetting Western nations?  

I think they are.  Both in numbers and acts.  I often bring up the fact that entire countries have their laws based on Islam, and the Humanist report I posted a few pages back does support my assertion that they are the worst of religions when it comes to the oppression of freedom with regard to expression and religion. 

With regard to acts, there's a lot of nastiness on the planet right now, but one of the goals of ISIS was to terrify opposition by sheer level of brutality.

[Argus]

8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Are they?  If the Christians in the MENA area, whether a minority in a Muslim country or a majority in their own country, are treating women about the same as Muslims,

You don't think that might be the influence of Islam and its adherents on local culture and values?

[Iceni warrior]

12 minutes ago, Argus said:

Uh, it WAS the political aims. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of history knows the invasion of Ireland by England started the mess. And it's quite true religion was a thing back then in the way the English treated the Irish. No question. But that had faded, at least on the part of Britain, by the time of The Troubles. It still existed among the Northern Irish Protestants but more as a defensive mechanism and fear of the Catholics wanting to tear them away from the UK.

The IRA was roundly condemned by the Catholic Church, and was defiantly Marxist. It did not, as far as I can recall, ever use the bible to justify its behaviour nor did its members ever present themselves as warring on behalf of Catholicism or the pope or anything else religious. ISIS is entirely different in that their entire reason for existence was to form a Muslim caliphate and cleanse the holy lands of infidels.

There are perverts in every race and profession. No one associates them with a particular faith or culture when they act as individuals. When you have big groups of them (10-15-20) acting together, though, and then multiple such groups all across a country, and they're all members of a particular race and religion, and they all act out against young girls who are NOT members of that race and religion, then it becomes pretty bloody obvious that there is a religious/cultural element at work.

 

So you are open minded enough to see that IRA terrorism was politically motivated. Why would you not have the same open mind when it comes to Islamic terrorism?

You even pin-point the source of the violence as the ''invasion''. Do you also acknowledge that the invasion and interferance in Middle Eastern affairs by the West is the source of Islamic terrorism?

As with Muslim gangs of child abusers, the conspiracy of silence within the Catholic church was not limited to individuals.

 

I see double standards at work.