This week in Islam

[Marocc]

2 hours ago, Goddess said:

Ask any Western woman if they would prefer living in Western society or in a Muslim-ruled country and there's your proof.

 

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

We're talking about which system women would prefer to live under, not asking them about moving to another country in general.

Nice dodge.

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

If they don't like Western culture, then why are they coming?  Why not stay in the countries which have the religious rules they prefer?

Who said they don't like Western culture? Really, you have to come up with some statistics or differentiate between different groups of Muslims (those who like and those who don't). Religion and law may not be the only thing affecting their decision and if someone does not like the law of the Muslim majority country they live in, it doesn't mean they don't want Islamic law.

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Yes, and another one on another thread smugly celebrating the establishment of Sharia law in Belgium.

Yes, she posts just as much false news as Scribblet.  Good you called her out on it; does she still have you on ignore?  Although, people who post false news rarely are impressed with the facts, so it hardly matters if she's ignoring you or not.

Edited December 3, 2019 by dialamah

[Goddess]

2 hours ago, Marocc said:

ask anyone living in a Muslim mojority country if they'd like to move to a western country the answer would probably still mostly be no.

This is your statement.  YOU are asserting that Muslims prefer Muslim majority countries over Western societies.

I'm not saying they are wrong to prefer that.  I'm just asking why - if the majority  prefer Muslim ruled countries, as you assert - do they come to Western countries instead of going to other Islamic countries.

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Good you called her out on it;

Well, you certainly don't call her out on anything.

 

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does she still have you on ignore? 

Who cares?  I dont' call her out for her benefit.  

[dialamah]

12 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Well, you certainly don't call her out on anything.

This is true; I also don't call out Taxme  who I find equally ridiculous and too often incoherent.  

So far I think every person here representing Islam has contradicted most of what Dia insists Muslims believe.

Excluding Altai, I think the other two folks have actually confirmed what I think think (some) Muslims believe, even the stuff I've argued with them about.

[DogOnPorch]

1 hour ago, Marocc said:

Hypothetically, let's say it is. What would be the motive of individual Muslims? Most of them are poor (once they have succeeded in immigrating if not before), a lot of them leaving a good life behind; families, friends, jobs. They spend their money trying to get somewhere else where anything might happen - if they ever get there.

 

Individual Muslims don't matter to Islam's doctrine anymore than Oskar Schindler did re: Nazism. Oskar was a pretty good Nazi...as they go. We don't judge Nazism by Oskar Schindler...but rather Treblinka and Babi Yar.

[DogOnPorch]

59 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Uhhh .... that's you with your "No true Muslim is peaceful" BS.

 

True Muslims follow the Quran and Hadiths. Islam isn't a race or a skin colour...it's a religion...since you seem unaware.

[DogOnPorch]

55 minutes ago, Marocc said:

 

Nice dodge.

Who said they don't like Western culture? Really, you have to come up with some statistics or differentiate between different groups of Muslims (those who like and those who don't). Religion and law may not be the only thing affecting their decision and if someone does not like the law of the Muslim majority country they live in, it doesn't mean they don't want Islamic law.

 

We call the West the West for a reason...oh, Islamic conqueror. The Middle East wasn't always under the oppressive boot of Islam.

[Argus]

21 hours ago, Marocc said:

Wikipedia —

Wikipedia directly quoting the sources, with links.

[Argus]

19 hours ago, Marocc said:

That is irrelevant. You're making exaggarations to avoid my point. There are people who will take advantage of your "natural" reactions. Also, your reactions can be changed in time on purpose. Do you think all your reactions are basically almost like a 'biological' phenomenon?

Whatever people might want to do to 'take advantage' of my natural reactions, those reactions are to the barbarity and violence I see through the media throughout the Muslim world every damned day, and being imported into the West.

[Argus]

14 hours ago, Right To Left said:

Well look what England has This Week in Christendom: a 12 year old boy died after being run over by a car that mounted the curb in Essex and also hit several children and adults in the incident causing a range of injuries. CAR CRASH PROBE Man, 51, arrested on suspicion of murder after boy, 12, killed in hit-and-run crash outside his school

It seems the driver's name is Terry Glover, and he appears to be white...so this story is in the back pages and whether or not it was deliberate vehicular manslaughter, being white and not being Muslim means no talk of terrorist attack and no international story repeated for three days on every newscast! 

This is perhaps the lamest reply I've seen on this entire, multi-years long thread. Did the guy claim he was running over the boy on behalf of God? Nope. Was he even religious? Nope. Did religion play even the slightest part in what was apparently an accident? Nope.

Totally. Lame.

[Argus]

14 hours ago, Right To Left said:

Okay,  is colonialism, especially settler colonialism a crime caused by an ideology of Christian supremacy? 

No. Every country and empire and kingdom on earth throughout its history expanded as far as it could given its military power to take and hold territory. Now if you really want to see an invasion which was despicably cruel in the name of a religion have a look at the Islamic conquests of India. That wasn't even so much a conquest as an extermination. Because Islam regards Hindus as polytheism idolators  they had to all die. Muslim warlords made a game of conquering entire cities (big ones) and then beheading every single man, woman and child. They'd pile these heads up high and take measurements in competition with other warlords slaughtering other cities. These cities sometimes had hundreds of thousands of people living there. Hundreds of millions are believed to have died during the years of attacks.

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Well, whenever I want to understand a major conflict, I want to know the history and contributing circumstances, including outside interference.

Ah, okay, so you want to go back to when Islam was relentlessly attacking and slaughtering Christians then, right? You're aware that most of the middle east was Christian until brutal Muslim warlords took that land and murdered, drove off, or forcibly converted all the Christians, right?

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And western conservatives share the same contempt for women and gays, but think pointing fingers at Muslim conservatives deflects attention and makes them look better.

Whatever 'western colonialism' had, is in the past. And btw, I can't recall a time in Christian history when women were required to cover their entire bodies in shrouds, or when gays would be summarily executed.

Muslim's are behaving this way today, and it sounds very much like you're in total agreement and sympathy with them.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Argus

[Argus]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

  Maybe they are moving to a culture they prefer, one which offers them freedom of religion, among other things.  Did'ja ever think of that?

Their behaviour here would seem to indicate otherwise, for they seem reluctant to abandon their own culture and values, retaining old-world attitudes and even dress. My neighbour, whom I have mentioned before, being a good example. His parents certainly moved to Canada willingly from the middle east, but then sent their sons and daughter 'home' when they reached their teenage years, not wanting them 'polluted' by Western values. There they took proper Muslim spouses and came back to live in Canada. And like their parents, they plan to send their kids 'home' when they reach their teen years, too. Don't want them infected with western perversion and slack morals.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Argus

[Argus]

5 hours ago, dialamah said:

You ignore, dismiss and deny any part of the Koran that teaches something other than killing others.

The way I see it people here will point out two dozen nasty verses of the Koran that say to treat unbelievers like vermin, and you'll thrust out one contradictory one in triumph as if that makes all the others valueless.

You're like that guy in the UK whose son was murdered by a Muslim terrorist, still furiously demanding the government take no harsh action against violent criminals and terrorists because that would be 'cruel'.

[Marocc]

2 hours ago, Goddess said:

This is your statement.  YOU are asserting that Muslims prefer Muslim majority countries over Western societies.

I'm not saying they are wrong to prefer that.  I'm just asking why - if the majority  prefer Muslim ruled countries, as you assert - do they come to Western countries instead of going to other Islamic countries.

I'm not stating that. Muslims preferring the place they happen to be at is different from Muslims preferring Islamic countries/Islamic law/islamic culture.

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Individual Muslims don't matter to Islam's doctrine anymore than Oskar Schindler did re: Nazism. Oskar was a pretty good Nazi...as they go. We don't judge Nazism by Oskar Schindler...but rather Treblinka and Babi Yar.

Individual Germans were mostly silent and looked the other way as the extreme and radical elements of their belief/political system rode roughshod over the Jews and the rest of the world.

I see the same in Islam.

[Marocc]

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Individual Muslims don't matter to Islam's doctrine anymore than Oskar Schindler did re: Nazism. Oskar was a pretty good Nazi...as they go. We don't judge Nazism by Oskar Schindler...but rather Treblinka and Babi Yar.

I'm talking about Islamic doctrine mattering to individual Muslims rather.

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, Marocc said:

I'm not stating that. Muslims preferring the place they happen to be at is different from Muslims preferring Islamic countries/Islamic law/islamic culture.

You're talking in circles.

We were discussing which system women would prefer - Western society or Muslim-ruled society.  You indicated most Muslim women prefer Muslim society.

Why they would prefer living in a Muslim-majority country is beyond me, seeing what's going on in 57 Muslim countries, but ok.

 

[Marocc]

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

We call the West the West for a reason...oh, Islamic conqueror. The Middle East wasn't always under the oppressive boot of Islam.

I know. The way to the city on your western side might be so much longer if you didn't have that concept.

it wasn't always Islamic. Nor was America always filled with Christians... How times change..

[Marocc]

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

You're talking in circles.

We were discussing which system women would prefer - Western society or Muslim-ruled society.  You indicated most Muslim women prefer Muslim society

 

No, I didn't.

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Why they would prefer living in a Muslim-majority country is beyond me

I know. It's okay.

[Marocc]

44 minutes ago, Argus said:

Wikipedia directly quoting the sources, with links.

What sources?

[Marocc]

52 minutes ago, Argus said:

Whatever people might want to do to 'take advantage' of my natural reactions, those reactions are to the barbarity and violence I see through the media throughout the Muslim world every damned day, and being imported into the West.

Exactly.

[Marocc]

6 hours ago, dialamah said:

And not naming those who have extreme views as separate from those who do not would be better how, exactly

 

I did not say they should not be named. Use correct names, that is all. Being a salafi means following the best of generations in Islam. This is what every good Muslim aims to do. If you see someone doing wrong and call them salafi you are insinuating that that is Islam.

6 hours ago, dialamah said:

Christianity has different sects, some of whom believe in polygamy.  If one is limited to referring to these people as "Christians who practice polygamy," people unfamiliar with the various belief systems of Christianity might be inclined to think that polygamy is an acceptable part of mainstream Christianity, but it's not.

Unless you support increasing Islamophobic rhetoric and actions among ignorant Westerners, perhaps you could see that it's to the benefit of Muslims to have the more extreme among them clearly identified, rather than seen as a single monolithic group.

For someone identifying as a salafi has nothing to do with extremism. People are called Salafis without them themselves identifying as such. Does "Saudi Arabia is a salafi country" sound familiar? There is nothing salafi-like in Saudi Arabian government or someone who holds the same values as they apparently do (as seems from the media - there are many types of individuals working for the Saudi Arabian governmen). And how many people know what even the media means with 'salafism'?

[Marocc]

3 hours ago, Goddess said:

Individual Germans were mostly silent and looked the other way as the extreme and radical elements of their belief/political system rode roughshod over the Jews and the rest of the world.

I see the same in Islam.

Do you see the same in China?

[dialamah]

15 hours ago, Marocc said:

I did not say they should not be named. Use correct names, that is all.

If you'd like us to use "correct names", perhaps you'd be kind enough to provide them.   What, for example, would we call Salafis who believe that violence is the way to promote and expand Islam?

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Being a salafi means following the best of generations in Islam. This is what every good Muslim aims to do. If you see someone doing wrong and call them salafi you are insinuating that that is Islam.

Salafi is considered to be a more pure form of Islam because it seeks to emulate the first generations of Islam, correct?    It was common in Mohammed's time to own slaves, and he did so himself.  If a Salafist owns a slave, is he/she doing 'something wrong', or 'following the best of generations in Islam"?   If any activity which we, today, would call wrong but which was common in Mohammed's time, would be a legitimate behavior of Salafis wouldn't it?

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For someone identifying as a salafi has nothing to do with extremism. People are called Salafis without them themselves identifying as such. Does "Saudi Arabia is a salafi country" sound familiar?

No, it doesn't, to me.  More often I've heard of Wahabism associated with Saudi Arabia.   

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There is nothing salafi-like in Saudi Arabian government or someone who holds the same values as they apparently do (as seems from the media - there are many types of individuals working for the Saudi Arabian governmen). And how many people know what even the media means with 'salafism'?

Saudi Arabia is considered among the most extreme when it comes to Islam; the women are extremely limited in terms of their freedom, any criticism of the ruling class or society is dealt with harshly, non-heterosexual people are also dealt with harshly.   Saudi Arabia didn't get around to aboloshing slavery until 1962, but even today, minorities who "work" for the ruling class are little more than slaves anyway.  So, what do we call these Muslims, if not Salafi?

Edited December 4, 2019 by dialamah