This week in Islam

[Right To Left]

13 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Ok, well then let's not use that definition.  
2. Buried in your observation is an implicit assumption that religious affiliation IS a trigger.  That's a fallacy on your part. ( I assume by 'any' affiliation you mean 'a particular' affiliation)
3. Yes.  The thread is all about blaming Muslims, raising fears about them, dehumanizing them.  There are a few actual well-intentioned bigots who truly don't understand where their base impulses came from, and some propagandists who know what they are doing.
 

I mentioned in another post that most of the people who view Muslim immigrants as a particular threat are not living in areas where they are going to live or work with any Muslims. It's a fear of the unknown......a fear of outsiders who are so foreign and detached, they can regarded as non-human. Those who do live in cities with relatively high numbers of recent immigrants may notice what they have in common, and be less likely to fall for whipped up hysteria and trying to ban sharia law. They likely haven't looked up what sharia law means either, but I guess that could be another topic!

Quote

4. Maybe they do.  But if you are trying to actually respond to the points that would sway the naive among us... that could be enough.

For my part, even though I'm in my 60's now, I'm still changing and trying to sort through what I believe on a range of subjects and what I consider important today.  So, I'm going to try to make my case for what I believe in, but I'm not really trying to change other people's beliefs.

[DogOnPorch]

2 hours ago, Right To Left said:

I mentioned in another post that most of the people who view Muslim immigrants as a particular threat are not living in areas where they are going to live or work with any Muslims. It's a fear of the unknown......a fear of outsiders who are so foreign and detached, they can regarded as non-human. Those who do live in cities with relatively high numbers of recent immigrants may notice what they have in common, and be less likely to fall for whipped up hysteria and trying to ban sharia law. They likely haven't looked up what sharia law means either, but I guess that could be another topic!

For my part, even though I'm in my 60's now, I'm still changing and trying to sort through what I believe on a range of subjects and what I consider important today.  So, I'm going to try to make my case for what I believe in, but I'm not really trying to change other people's beliefs.

 

What's your favorite thing about Islam?

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, Right To Left said:

 For my part, even though I'm in my 60's now, I'm still changing and trying to sort through what I believe on a range of subjects and what I consider important today.  So, I'm going to try to make my case for what I believe in, but I'm not really trying to change other people's beliefs.

There are many challenges there, but luckily you still have your youth 

I used to think I was a leftist, until I realized that most of the time I am just pointing out the basics of a small-l liberal democracy to people who say things like "xyz should be hanged", people who have no idea where our laws came from or how they work.

Some basic facts about Islam are that there aren't many of them, they're not projected to be a huge number, they don't vote as a bloc and they are much like many other religion when they live in a western context.  Extremist terrorism is a threat, yes, but on the same scale as other terrorist threats and Muslims are also the targets of rightista extremists.  None of this is 'leftist'.

There are groups like Jihadwatch that fund puposeful hate propaganda against Muslims, and you even find people quoting them on here.  Why ?  To disunify, to villify and to foment hate.

I invite you to friend me on Facebook, where I make an effort to never let a thoughtless, hateful, stupid propaganda post go unanswered.  More people need to do that, to counter the paid fake accounts that are out there.

Cheers... 

[OftenWrong]

Hate is an equal opportunity employer. Keep that in mind

[dialamah]

16 hours ago, Argus said:

Only extremists keep note of other extremists.

And Islamophobes only keep track of Islamic terrorism.

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Right To Left said:

Now that sounds like as cryptic a message as I'm likely to see today! 

If we define terrorism as the desperate use of force or violence against perceived enemies that are perceived as existential threats, then it seems obvious that a lot of other conditions have to be set in place before we start seeing the first terrorist attacks. Yet, no thought or discussion is being made here about why any religious affiliation would trigger some people to commit terrorist attacks ...even going on suicide attacks. 

The whole purpose of this thread seems to have been to try to leave an impression that terrorism is inextricably linked with Muslims, and suppressing Muslims in the Middle East and preventing them from immigrating to the west will solve the problem. The rebuttals have to go further than "Most Muslim immigrants are nice people!"

Most everyone is nice.  Muslims are no exception.

The purpose of this thread is not to demonize Muslims, but rather, to discuss and criticize a mind boggling situation where we are in the 21st century, and countries still have laws based on religion and the death penalty on the books for things like blasphemy and apostasy, without those in opposition reverting to said, blinkered "demonizing" argument.  I always thought that criticism of right wing conservative religious nutcases would find much agreement on the left, and it does, except for one particularly nasty bunch.  I still struggle to figure that out.

As for a religious trigger for terrorism, if you've never considered a suicide belt yourself, you're unlikely to get it.  I know I don't.

 

[dialamah]

17 hours ago, Argus said:

They will condemn individual members once proven to be violent and hateful,

Yes indeed, the Western value of "innocent till proven guilty" runs deep in those dastardly leftists.

17 hours ago, Argus said:

but always insist that you cannot take that as any sign of anything

In exactly the same way that we don't assume everyone with a penis is a rapist and pedophile, because 10s of thousands of people with penises have raped women and children.

17 hours ago, Argus said:

the fact all 57 Muslim states criminalize homosexuality and are strongly prejudiced against women and non-Muslims in their laws and regulations means nothing to progressives.

You and many other people in Canada don't want government deficits, but look - it happens anyway.  Plenty of people in Canada don't want the Trans Mountain pipeline - but the Government supports it.  Most people in Alberta and Saskatchewan are desperately unhappy with our current government.  Assuming that a government reflects what everybody, or even the majority, in that country wants is ridiculous, especially when that government is authoritarian in nature.  You are better off quoting the Pew research, which at least uses a large sample of individuals to make their conclusions. 

But I suppose that research also reveals that Muslims are not a monolithic block of  gay-killing misogynistic oppressors, so not suitable for your argument.

17 hours ago, Argus said:

if one or two members of a conservative group says something racist then all members of that group are racist.

I think you are racist, but you are not "all conservatives."   But just as Islam provides support and validation for misogynistic and homophobic people, so does conservatism provide support for racists. 

I understand the yellow vests started out as protesting fuel prices in France, and were co-opted by vocal anti-immigrant groups there.  By the time it landed in Canada, it claimed to be protesting carbon taxes, but is primarily anti-Islam, anti-immigrant.  I'm sure not everyone in the original Yellow Vest movement is racist, but given that they live in a free country, they are able to leave that group if they disagree with the direction it's taking.  

Edited November 27, 2019 by dialamah

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, dialamah said:

And Islamophobes only keep track of Islamic terrorism.

I can't quote a "Sad" emoticon, so I had to do this.  Do you find it sad because it's true, or sad that I would think that?

I hope "Sad" doesn't become like "dumb" on the lesser site.  Just a way of avoiding having to counter a point.

[DogOnPorch]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

 

There are groups like Jihadwatch that fund puposeful hate propaganda against Muslims, and you even find people quoting them on here.  Why ?  To disunify, to villify and to foment hate.

 

 

Jihad Watch is just that. A watch on Jihad activity. It's not propaganda nor is Robert Spencer (he's not Richard) a purveyor of hate. Islam speaks for itself via its actions. That you choose to ignore what Islam's message is does not make it benign.

As for good Muslims...there are plenty. There were plenty of good Nazis, as well. That doesn't mean Nazism is to be coddled and supported based on the actions of Oskar Schindler or some similar Nazi. We judge Nazism by Treblinka and other atrocities it committed as an entity. 

[dialamah]

5 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

We judge Nazism by Treblinka and other atrocities it committed as an entity. 

But we don't judge Catholics by the Church history, or for hiding pedophiles .  If we judge all adherents to a faith or ideology by the worst examples of that ideology, why do Catholics get a pass?

Same with Christians - why aren't they all tarred with those who've shot abortion providers, starved or horrifically beaten their kids based on some obscure or misinterpreted Biblical teaching, insist women submit to their husbands, men in general, forbid women positions of leadership and condemn anything except heterosexual sex within marriage.  Why do Christians get a pass on judging them all by the actions of their worst?

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, dialamah said:

But we don't judge Catholics by the Church history, or for hiding pedophiles .  If we judge all adherents to a faith or ideology by the worst examples of that ideology, why do Catholics get a pass?

Same with Christians - why aren't they all tarred with those who've shot abortion providers, starved or horrifically beaten their kids based on some obscure or misinterpreted Biblical teaching, insist women submit to their husbands, men in general, forbid women positions of leadership and condemn anything except heterosexual sex within marriage.  Why do Christians get a pass on judging them all by the actions of their worst?

 

I don't know about you, but I don't give Roman Catholicism a break for molesting children. 

[DogOnPorch]

...as for the rest of your post.

You're seriously worried about how Christianity treats women while being an unflinching supporter of the misogynistic cult of Islam?

Oakie-Doakie...

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

But we don't judge Catholics by the Church history, or for hiding pedophiles .  If we judge all adherents to a faith or ideology by the worst examples of that ideology, why do Catholics get a pass?

Same with Christians - why aren't they all tarred with those who've shot abortion providers, starved or horrifically beaten their kids based on some obscure or misinterpreted Biblical teaching, insist women submit to their husbands, men in general, forbid women positions of leadership and condemn anything except heterosexual sex within marriage.  Why do Christians get a pass on judging them all by the actions of their worst?

It's a broken record, I know, but all religions have much to be criticized about.  It's just that Islam is the worst, and it forms the basis for law in many countries.  That latter is the bit that evokes wide eyed, stunned stupefaction.

Edited November 27, 2019 by bcsapper

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

I suppose it's because Christian countries don't mandate the shooting of abortion providers by law.

It's a broken record, I know, but all religions have much to be criticized about.  It's just that Islam is the worst, and it forms the basis for law in many countries.  That latter is the bit that evokes wide eyed, stunned stupefaction.

 

It's like saying "Well, what about those darn Imperial Japanese??" while discussing the evils of Nazism. It doesn't suddenly make Nazism agreeable...

[DogOnPorch]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Hate is an equal opportunity employer. Keep that in mind

 

Yes indeed. But only Islam codifies hatred right into its teachings.

Al-Wala' wal-Bara'....loving what Allah loves and HATING what Allah hates...like the Jews...Infidels & Polytheists...homosexuals...etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Wala'_wal-Bara'

[dialamah]

20 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

...as for the rest of your post.

You're seriously worried about how Christianity treats women while being an unflinching supporter of the misogynistic cult of Islam?

Oakie-Doakie...

I have said, many times, that Islam supports things like misogyny and homophobia, just as Christianity does.  I have also pointed out that the attitudes and behaviors indulged in by Middle Eastern and North African Muslims are often the same amongst Christian groups in those regions, sometimes at the same rate, sometimes less and sometimes more.

When I give money to the "Because I am a Girl" campaign, it may help a Muslim girl or a Christuan girl, or maybe a girl from one of the nativist religions.  The point is that they face very similar issues, regardless of their religion.

When the issue of domestic violence among immigrant Muslim communities in Canada comes up, I point out that many immigrant communities have a similar problem, regardless of faith, and any solutions will not and should not apply only to Muslims.

You are the one limiting your "concern" to just a single group - but only to demonize them.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, dialamah said:

I have said, many times, that Islam supports things like misogyny and homophobia, just as Christianity does.  I have also pointed out that the attitudes and behaviors indulged in by Middle Eastern and North African Muslims are often the same amongst Christian groups in those regions, sometimes at the same rate, sometimes less and sometimes more.

When I give money to the "Because I am a Girl" campaign, it may help a Muslim girl or a Christuan girl, or maybe a girl from one of the nativist religions.  The point is that they face very similar issues, regardless of their religion.

When the issue of domestic violence among immigrant Muslim communities in Canada comes up, I point out that many immigrant communities have a similar problem, regardless of faith, and any solutions will not and should not apply only to Muslims.

You are the one limiting your "concern" to just a single group - but only to demonize them.

 

That's sweet that you care about the oppressed victims of Islam while supporting Islam with all your ability. You really are an example of Nietzsche's duality of humankind... 

[dialamah]

 

 

9 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

That's sweet that you care about the oppressed victims of Islam while supporting Islam with all your ability. You really are an example of Nietzsche's duality of humankind... 

As I've noted before, I call out bigots and hatemongering.  Oddly, I've been barred from both Islamic and Conservative groups for that; this forum is more secular, so that hasn't happened - though I have been sanctioned for being too rough on the local bigots/hatemongers.

Yes, I could jump all over Altai here - but she's in the same group as Taxme, a White Supremacist bigot, who merely posts wild and largely incoherent ramblings.

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

 

As I've noted before, I call out bigots and hatemongering.  Oddly, I've been barred from both Islamic and Conservative groups for that; this forum is more secular, so that hasn't happened - though I have been sanctioned for being too rough on the local bigots/hatemongers.

Yes, I could jump all over Altai here - but she's in the same group as Taxme, a White Supremacist bigot, who merely posts wild and largely incoherent ramblings.

 

I view Islam as Nazism with a God complex...so you won't find ANY support for the death cult here.

Islam was created as a form of revenge upon the other faiths of the region...a poor way to start any positive venture.

[dialamah]

30 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

I view Islam as Nazism with a God complex...so you won't find ANY support for the death cult here.

Yes, you've made your feelings clear.  You are forced to ignore every Koranic scripture that allows a different belief system, and every Muslim who doesn't engage in murder or any barbaric practices to maintain that worldview, but that's how bigotry works.

33 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Islam was created as a form of revenge upon the other faiths of the region...a poor way to start any positive venture.

Christianity has its share of poor behavior throughout its six thousand year history, and has really only reformed in the last few centuries and in some regions of the world, is still far behind our Westernized Christianity.  Islam, created in Christianity's image, is still well behind Westernized Christianity, but I expect its reform will occur much sooner in its history than did Christianity's reform.  I think it'll happen over the next two or three generations.  

Of course, I could be wrong.  Humans tend to become more conservative and religious when they feel threatened.  Global climate change may see a resurgence of fundamentalist Christianity around the world and slowing of Islam's reform.

[Goddess]

9 hours ago, Right To Left said:

"Legal"/"Illegal" immigrants is just a canard...a  bunch of arbitrary excuses created to regulate entry into a country.

What is wrong or immoral about regulating entry into a country?

9 hours ago, Right To Left said:

My own experience tells me that those who fear Muslims and non-white immigrants in general the most,  live in white suburbs or rural areas of the Country, where they never see, let alone talk to anyone who comes from these places.

Your experience would be wrong in my case.  I lived in a predominantly Muslim neighbourhood and saw some things first-hand - including the burka covered women who were barely allowed to leave their houses and when they were - got cuffed across the back of their heads as they went to the car.  Watched little girls in burkas and headcoverings try to play outside in the hot summer wearing jeans and long sleeve shirts, while little boys played merrily in shorts and t-shirts (and vandalized/trashed everything in sight. When the female property manager got after them, they told her that their father told them they do not have to listen to women.)  The little girls don't last long outside in the heat, all covered up. I have an issue with a religion that finds 5 year old girls soooooo sexy, that they believe they need to be covered up at all times.  I have worked with Muslims and see them regularly.  I have been assaulted by one.  I have been screamed at, I have been shoved because I handed some food tickets to a Muslim wife instead of giving them to her 4 year old son.  I was near the area and got caught up in the dragnet where the Muslim guy with the ISIS flag in his car ran down pedestrians and stabbed a police officer.  I watched in horror while a  mob of Muslims on the internet attacked an Israeli girl - telling her how they wanted to kill her and desecrate her corpse.  Through working with cult survivors, I came into contact with quite a few Muslims who also wanted to leave their religion but were afraid and needed help.  Do you know why they were afraid?  Because Islam kills those who leave.  Some were afraid because they were gay and feared for their life - there is no tolerance for homosexuals in Islam - Dia is being dishonest in that, and she knows it.

I dont' see that Islam is producing quality people, making their lives better or the world a better place.  I am not saying this is "ALL" Muslims.  But in general - I don't find them to be a happy, peaceful bunch.  It's odd to me that people like you and Dia support so strongly a group that does all the above things, AND then join the group in  harrassing and abusing, denying and discounting, labeling as Islamophobes and racists - those who have been mistreated by the religion.

[Goddess]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

In exactly the same way that we don't assume everyone with a penis is a rapist and pedophile, because 10s of thousands of people with penises have raped women and children.

And yet, every woman I know takes steps daily to protect themselves from men, knowing that "NOT ALL MEN!!!!" rape.  But enough of them do, so that women protecting themselves and being aware at all times, is necessary.

It's the same with Islam.

[Goddess]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

And Islamophobes only keep track of Islamic terrorism.

Some government/world agencies are also keeping track of Islamic terrorism.  Apparently they are also Islamophobic.

Quote

 they are able to leave that group if they disagree with the direction it's taking.  

And Muslims who do not agree with the direction the religion is taking are also free to leave the group.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Goddess

[dialamah]

4 minutes ago, Goddess said:

And yet, every woman I know takes steps daily to protect themselves from men, knowing that "NOT ALL MEN!!!!" rape.  But enough of them do, so that women protecting themselves and being aware at all times, is necessary.

It's the same with Islam.

What would you think if, every time a rape was reported on the news, certain women reliably reported it on a thread here, and made sweeping generalizations about men's backward and misogynistic beliefs, how barbaric men are, how non-raping men needed to stand up and apologize for the rapists/pedophiles in their midst.  What if these women talked about limiting men's ability to move freely within Canada or around the world, raising the alarm if men showed any interest in politics, school administration and limiting their access to public sector jobs based on how they styled their hair, or if they wore black jeans.  These same women would ignore, dismiss and downplay the same crimes committed by women, insist that women were, as a group, more civilized and trustworthy than men and that is why men needed to be watched and controlled.

Not like Islam, at all.

 

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

I have also pointed out that the attitudes and behaviors indulged in by Middle Eastern and North African Muslims are often the same amongst Christian groups

 

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

When the issue of domestic violence among immigrant Muslim communities in Canada comes up, I point out that many immigrant communities have a similar problem,

Yes, I've noticed you do this a lot.  When misogyny in Islam is being discussed, you want to discuss misogyny in Christianity.  Anything happening in Islam, you want to quickly change the subject.  I'm glad you have also noticed that you do not wish to address the  problems in Islam and get quite angry when others do.