This week in Islam

[Michael Hardner]

The important thing is that we find ways to make Islam look bad.  If they are law abiding, then find one who commited a crime and publicize it as though it's a typical case.  If the ones in Canada are ok then talk about the ones in France.  Scapegoating is an art and we need to respect the artists.  

[eyeball]

43 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

The important thing is that we find ways to make Islam look bad.  If they are law abiding, then find one who commited a crime and publicize it as though it's a typical case.  If the ones in Canada are ok then talk about the ones in France.  Scapegoating is an art and we need to respect the artists.  

They do go to great indefatigable lengths I'll give them that.

I wonder who they scapegoat in France?  Probably multicultural Canadian lefties, especially anglais one's.  

[Goddess]

Yup, laugh it up about France, you 3.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

The important thing is that we find ways to make Islam look bad.  If they are law abiding, then find one who commited a crime and publicize it as though it's a typical case.  If the ones in Canada are ok then talk about the ones in France.  Scapegoating is an art and we need to respect the artists.  

Islam needs no help to look bad.  That's part of the problem with the left's view (except me).  They have blinkers (as with Argus's most recent cartoon) and therefore have to describe legitimate criticism of Islam as Islamophobia because to not do so is to acknowledge it, and they cannot do that.  For some reason they are afraid.

I've yet to come across a poster on here who thinks that the things that disgust me about Islam are okay, so if I am Islamophobic, so are they.

Edited June 17, 2019 by bcsapper

[eyeball]

50 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Islam needs no help to look bad.  That's part of the problem with the left's view (except me).  They have blinkers (as with Argus's most recent cartoon) and therefore have to describe legitimate criticism of Islam as Islamophobia because to not do so is to acknowledge it, and they cannot do that.  For some reason they are afraid.

Afraid of what exactly?  It takes as little effort to legitimately criticize Islam as it does any other religion or superstitious nonsense floating around out there, and that includes vaccination, chemtrail and media party conspiracies.  All are as devoid of critical thinking as the day is long.

Quote

I've yet to come across a poster on here who thinks that the things that disgust me about Islam are okay, so if I am Islamophobic, so are they

I've come across precious few critics of Islam that are able to be critical without sounding like an ignorant asshole. Maybe its the one's who go go out of their way to do this that pisses people off.

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

Islam needs no help to look bad.  That's part of the problem with the left's view (except me).  They have blinkers (as with Argus's most recent cartoon) and therefore have to describe legitimate criticism of Islam as Islamophobia because to not do so is to acknowledge it, and they cannot do that.  For some reason they are afraid.

I've yet to come across a poster on here who thinks that the things that disgust me about Islam are okay, so if I am Islamophobic, so are they.

You clearly miss the point.  Just over a million Muslims live in Canada but if one is on the news for any kind of bad behavior, our "critics of Islam" say 'look! It's because if Islam!  Our society is doomed!"  

Of course the million other Muslims who never break a law and appear on the evening news, or the few who show up on the news because of how well they've done integrating, working, creating jobs, contributing to our society  are dismissed by these "Critics of Islam" as aberrations.  

In this case, MH talked about White Supremacists targeting Muslims in Canada.  This triggered a "Critic of Islam" to quickly declare that Muslims in France are behaving badly.  

And then you do your usual simplistic and disingenuous "oh but Islam is bad, if only you leftists would realize it".  That is not the issue MH was remarking on: scapegoating Muslims was.

Try paying attention for a change.

Edited June 18, 2019 by dialamah

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, Goddess said:

Yup, laugh it up about France, you 3.

I'm not laughing at this situation.  Scapegoating a religion is odious and selfish.  

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

1. Islam needs no help to look bad.  That's part of the problem with the left's view (except me).   

2. I've yet to come across a poster on here who thinks that the things that disgust me about Islam are okay, so if I am Islamophobic, so are they.

1. I'm more than willing to talk about problems with religions, with immigration and so on.  But the intent of pretty much every discussion on here, from the outset, is to scapegoat Muslims and prove that they are bad people.  I have listened to dry and dispassionate take-downs of religion but these threads are about people expressing their prejudices and pretending otherwise. This very thread is about picking off crimes, worldwide, by adherents of that religion and using it to 'prove' they're all bad.  That's all it is.

2.  So you seem to be saying either there are no 'leftists' on here, or that the assertion about leftists is incorrect.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Afraid of what exactly?  It takes as little effort to legitimately criticize Islam as it does any other religion or superstitious nonsense floating around out there, and that includes vaccination, chemtrail and media party conspiracies.  All are as devoid of critical thinking as the day is long.

I've come across precious few critics of Islam that are able to be critical without sounding like an ignorant asshole. Maybe its the one's who go go out of their way to do this that pisses people off.

That's only because you think legitimate criticism of Islam , a despicable religion that advocates the death sentence for apostasy, blasphemy and homosexuality, is ignorant.  Calling a spade a spade is honesty, not ignorance.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

You clearly miss the point.  Just over a million Muslims live in Canada but if one is on the news for any kind of bad behavior, our "critics of Islam" say 'look! It's because if Islam!  Our society is doomed!"  

Of course the million other Muslims who never break a law and appear on the evening news, or the few who show up on the news because of how well they've done integrating, working, creating jobs, contributing to our society  are dismissed by these "Critics of Islam" as aberrations.  

In this case, MH talked about White Supremacists targeting Muslims in Canada.  This triggered a "Critic of Islam" to quickly declare that Muslims in France are behaving badly.  

And then you do your usual simplistic and disingenuous "oh but Islam is bad, if only you leftists would realize it".  That is not the issue MH was remarking on: scapegoating Muslims was.

Try paying attention for a change.

Islam is bad.  There's no doubt whatsoever about that.  Not all Muslims are bad, of course.  The Pope still thinks I'm a Catholic, but I'm okay with abortion, female priests, birth control, etc.  I'm just not a very good Catholic.

As you well know, I can't go back too far when it comes to posts.  It's not a lack of attention.  It's a lack of will.  It doesn't matter anyway, as the post I responded to said, sarcastically, " The important thing is that we find ways to make Islam look bad. ".  There's no need to read back in order to respond to that.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I'm more than willing to talk about problems with religions, with immigration and so on.  But the intent of pretty much every discussion on here, from the outset, is to scapegoat Muslims and prove that they are bad people.  I have listened to dry and dispassionate take-downs of religion but these threads are about people expressing their prejudices and pretending otherwise. This very thread is about picking off crimes, worldwide, by adherents of that religion and using it to 'prove' they're all bad.  That's all it is.

2.  So you seem to be saying either there are no 'leftists' on here, or that the assertion about leftists is incorrect.

1) I have to call BS on that, just a bit. If the Repubs in Alabama decided that 99 years for performing an abortion was a fit sentence you would probably agree with me about how absolutely disgusting they were.  There wouldn't be any complaints about scapegoating southern US religious types.  They would just be ignorant bastards.  And rightly so.  Because they truly would be.  Same with Muslims. (The ones doing the deciding.  Not those who thought it was a bad idea  --  Edited to include any who thought an acquittal was a bad idea and took to the streets insisting the sentence be carried out anyway)

2) I was just wondering where we differ.  Why I might be Islamophobic, and you not.  On which aspect of the religion of peace do we differ?  As a committed leftist, I absolutely abhor all right wing conservative religious nutjobs who would have others act in a way they prescribe. I just wonder where the argument is.  Don't all we leftists feel the same way?

Edited June 18, 2019 by bcsapper

[dialamah]

25 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

the Repubs in Alabama decided that 99 years for performing an abortion was a fit sentence you would probably agree with me about how absolutely disgusting they were.  There wouldn't be any complaints about scapegoating southern US religious types

Is there a thread on here designed to prove the evil of Christians based on what these Southern US religious types are doing? 

Are there people on here who regularly declare Christians an existestential threat to Western civilization because of these Southern US religious types? 

If a Southern US religious type commits a murder or rape, does anyone pop on here to declare that Christians do this kind of stuff because their religion demands it?    Do they also ask "why aren't all Christians condemning the behavior of these southern US religious types"?   

Genuine criticism doesn't demonize entire groups of people.  That is the difference you don't seem to get.  

 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Is there a thread on here designed to prove the evil of Christians based on what these Southern US religious types are doing? 

Are there people on here who regularly declare Christians an existestential threat to Western civilization because of these Southern US religious types? 

If a Southern US religious type commits a murder or rape, does anyone pop on here to declare that Christians do this kind of stuff because their religion demands it?    Do they also ask "why aren't all Christians condemning the behavior of these southern US religious types"?   

Genuine criticism doesn't demonize entire groups of people.  That is the difference you don't seem to get.  

 

The problem is, there would be no-one to argue with them if there were.  Try it and see.  You might get some "not all Christians" comments.

It appears it is only Islam which can be truly barbaric and still find defenders.  Don't ask me why or where they come from.  I just like to argue with them.

What you do get, but don't seem to be able to admit you get, is that I am not demonizing entire groups of people.  I'm just demonizing barbaric bastards.

Edited June 18, 2019 by bcsapper

[dialamah]

14 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

The problem is, there would be no-one to argue with them if there were.  Try it and see. 

Really?  Nobody would defend Christians if there was an attempt to use their most extreme minority as if that was their norm?  Find that hard to believe.  

Quote

It appears it is only Islam which can be truly barbaric and find defenders.  Don't ask me why or where they come from.  I just like to argue with them.

All religions are barbaric, if taken to extremes ... which generally happens when they gain political power.  The adherents to a religion may or may not fully endorse all the barbarity of their religion.  Just because an authoritarian regime decrees death to those practicing homosexuality does not mean that everyone in that country agrees, yet that's what too many on this board assume.  

Assuming that a man who illegally shoots up a planned parenthood office represents all Christians is no more accurate than assuming that the ISIS terrorists who threw homosexuals off a roof represents all Muslims and an example of what they'll do if given a chance in Canada.  Yet in the real world of Islam, there is no punishment for homosexuality specified in the Quran; punishments are defined in the hadiths and are varied.   Even the Islamic countries which have a death penalty for homosexuality tend not to carry them out.  

That is the problem you seem to remain blind to - the agenda of these "critics of Islam" isn't to criticize Islam, it's to demonize Muslims using every example of extreme behavior to prove that Muslims are evil.  

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Really?  Nobody would defend Christians if there was an attempt to use their most extreme minority as if that was their norm?  Find that hard to believe.  

All religions are barbaric, if taken to extremes ... which generally happens when they gain political power.  The adherents to a religion may or may not fully endorse all the barbarity of their religion.  Just because an authoritarian regime decrees death to those practicing homosexuality does not mean that everyone in that country agrees, yet that's what too many on this board assume.  

Assuming that a man who illegally shoots up a planned parenthood office represents all Christians is no more accurate than assuming that the ISIS terrorists who threw homosexuals off a roof represents all Muslims and an example of what they'll do if given a chance in Canada.  Yet in the real world of Islam, there is no punishment for homosexuality specified in the Quran; punishments are defined in the hadiths and are varied.   Even the Islamic countries which have a death penalty for homosexuality tend not to carry them out.  

That is the problem you seem to remain blind to - the agenda of these "critics of Islam" isn't to criticize Islam, it's to demonize Muslims using every example of extreme behavior to prove that Muslims are evil.  

Nobody would defend the extreme minority. 

Edit> On here I mean. I doubt that even the most vocal pro lifers would advocate a 99 year prison sentence for a doctor convicted of performing an abortion, and I doubt even more that any of them would gang up to try and impose the sentence anyway should the doctor be acquitted.

I'm not blind to anything, as I am the critic of Islam that we are talking about.  No-one else.  I responded to a single statement that implied that Islam was being "made" to look bad.

I think it is bad.  It is the worst of religions.  None of them, as far as I know, are any good.  Islam is just the worst.  If I am right, nothing else need be said.  Argue with them, not me.

Or am I wrong?

Edited June 18, 2019 by bcsapper

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

It appears it is only Islam which can be truly barbaric and still find defenders.

You misunderstand, we're not defending a barbaric religion, we're attacking people who like to be assholes about it.  We're kinda like the Muslim moderates rednecks are often challenging to get in Muslim extremists faces.

I doubt they like it any more than you do.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

You misunderstand, we're not defending a barbaric religion, we're attacking people who like to be assholes about it.  We're kinda like the Muslim moderates rednecks are often challenging to get in Muslim extremists faces.

I doubt they like it any more than you do.

You misunderstand.  You are defending it.  You oppose people stating the facts about it because you are uncomfortable acknowledging those facts.  Might be xenophobic if you apply the same rules to people who don't look like you as you would to people who do.

If the assholes are lying, just say so.  Then they can argue the points.

[eyeball]

26 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

You misunderstand.  You are defending it.  You oppose people stating the facts about it because you are uncomfortable acknowledging those facts. 

No I'm not defending it, you must be one of those people who subscribe to believing if you're not with me you're against me. I'm not with anyone and not at all uncomfortable about acknowledging how barbaric Islam can be (how many times do I have to say that for it to sink in btw), I just don't see how being an asshole about it helps.

Quote

Might be xenophobic if you apply the same rules to people who don't look like you as you would to people who do.

If the assholes are lying, just say so.  Then they can argue the points.

They're certainly not lying when they say Islam isn't a race but it might as well be the way they treat it.

Edited June 18, 2019 by eyeball

[dialamah]

30 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

None of them, as far as I know, are any good.  Islam is just the worst.  If I am right, nothing else need be said.  Argue with them, not me.

Or am I wrong?

Mohammed got all his ideas from the Jews, Christians and others he ran across on his travels.  He combined them to create a "new" religion and said God did it.  There is virtually nothing in the Quran that can't be found in the Bible, good and bad.  Muslims even honor several Biblical figures.

So yeah, they're all about the same.  You only think Islam is worse because you are as unaware as most people of its history and teachings, and equally unaware of the barbarity of Christians throughout history and in those African countries where Christianity still controls populations.  

But really it's not the religions themselves; it's that people use religion to justify their own barbarity.  And of course the teachings of religion make it easy, by providing many statements that can be used to support and justify any behavior, good or bad.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, dialamah said:

Mohammed got all his ideas from the Jews, Christians and others he ran across on his travels.  He combined them to create a "new" religion and said God did it.  There is virtually nothing in the Quran that can't be found in the Bible, good and bad.  Muslims even honor several Biblical figures.

So yeah, they're all about the same.  You only think Islam is worse because you are as unaware as most people of its history and teachings, and equally unaware of the barbarity of Christians throughout history and in those African countries where Christianity still controls populations.  

But really it's not the religions themselves; it's that people use religion to justify their own barbarity.  And of course the teachings of religion make it easy, by providing many statements that can be used to support and justify any behavior, good or bad.

When I said Islam is the worst I meant at the moment.  I'm no student of religious history.  As for Africa, there's an awful lot of religious nastiness goes on there too.  Islam, Christianity, and even witchcraft.  Don't be an Albino in Tanzania if you don't want bits of you used in some ceremony or other.

Still, on balance, at the moment, Islam is the worst of a pretty bad lot.  By quite a margin, I think.

I understand that a religion is only those who believe in it, and interpret it.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, eyeball said:

No I'm not defending it, you must be one of those people who subscribe to believing if you're not with me you're against me. I'm not with anyone and not at all uncomfortable about acknowledging how barbaric Islam can be (how many times do I have to say that for it to sink in btw), I just don't see how being an asshole about it helps.

They're certainly not lying when they say Islam isn't a race but it might as well be the way they treat it.

But it's so jarring to find someone who is usually so mean to right wing conservatives being nice to some of the worst of them.

Certainly we agree about the barbarism. (It's like saying one doesn't mean all Muslims.  Maybe one just has to keep on saying it.)

[eyeball]

37 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

But it's so jarring to find someone who is usually so mean to right wing conservatives being nice to some of the worst of them.

Being nice?  Where, and to whom?

[dialamah]

44 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Still, on balance, at the moment, Islam is the worst of a pretty bad lot.  By quite a margin, I think.

They are the same.  Islam just happens to be featured on media more, at the moment, in Western countries.  Do you suppose that is Islamic countries, they don't use our most garish news stories to demonstrate how evil Western secularism is?  

[DogOnPorch]

18 hours ago, dialamah said:

I'm critical of people who support ISIS interpretation of Islam, and reject any other interpretation.  Like you do.

Your "definition" of Islamophobia is just more of your lies.  Here's an actual definition.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if the killer calls themselves "Muslim" or "Protector of the White Race" or "Proud American", the same hatred and fear of "other" drives them.  

 

You're free to deny the MB's influence while supporting them 100%. I expect it of you.

[DogOnPorch]

11 hours ago, dialamah said:

 

Genuine criticism doesn't demonize entire groups of people.  That is the difference you don't seem to get.  

 

 

...like Nazis, for example...eh?