This week in Islam

[Shady]

I swear the mainstream media go out of their way to “pretend” to be obtuse.

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

The Quran says exactly what it says. It isn't my interpretation of what it says.

So you are kind of like a talking doll, your string gets pulled and you recite the Koran with no sense of how it applies in the lives of Muslims today.

Got it.

[Goddess]

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

So you are kind of like a talking doll, your string gets pulled and you recite the Koran with no sense of how it applies in the lives of Muslims today.

Got it.

You have an interesting take on Islam for sure - you don't think Muslims believe, read or follow their own holy book?

[dialamah]

14 minutes ago, Goddess said:

You have an interesting take on Islam for sure - you don't think Muslims believe, read or follow their own holy book?

Here let me quote you what I said to DoP:

2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 would be persuaded by what the Quran says Muslims should do any more than anyone sane is persuaded by what the Bible says Christians should do.  People interpret their holy books however they want,

Let me repeat: People interpret their holy books however they want.

So we can have hardline Christians like Betsy, or gentle ones like my very devout Catholic friend who offers acceptance even to gay people.  We can have Christians who think they should not bake cakes for gay weddings, and Christians who will perform gay marriages, celebrate and honor them.  

In the same way, we can have Muslims who think that women must cover and Muslims who think they don't need to.  We can also have Muslims who believe gays cannot be Muslims and Muslims who open gay mosques and gay Muslim women who wear hijab.

People interpret their holy books however they want and that doesn't change no matter how often DoP chooses to quote the quran in his ongoing attempts to paint Muslims as extremists. 

[Goddess]

12 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Here let me quote you what I said to DoP:

Let me repeat: People interpret their holy books however they want.

So we can have hardline Christians like Betsy, or gentle ones like my very devout Catholic friend who offers acceptance even to gay people.  We can have Christians who think they should not bake cakes for gay weddings, and Christians who will perform gay marriages, celebrate and honor them.  

In the same way, we can have Muslims who think that women must cover and Muslims who think they don't need to.  We can also have Muslims who believe gays cannot be Muslims and Muslims who open gay mosques and gay Muslim women who wear hijab.

People interpret their holy books however they want and that doesn't change no matter how often DoP chooses to quote the quran in his ongoing attempts to paint Muslims as extremists. 

That's too bad.  Seems like a free-for-all.  Nothing is off limits in that religion.

OK with gays?  You're a Muslim

Think gays should be thrown off rooftops?  You're a Muslim

Like beating your wife?  You're a Muslim

Don't beat your wife?  You're a Muslim

Believe women are not humans?  You're a Muslim

Agree with equality between the sexes?  You're a Muslim

Love it when women have mutilated genitals?  Your'e a Muslim

Dont' agree with FGM?  You're a Muslim

 

I'm curious, (although you are not a Muslim but seem to speak for them) what is the point of this religion if they all can do whatever they want willy-nilly and its all okay and acceptable?  It seems to me that this kind of religion would actually attract a lot of miscreants, because there is nothing off limits.

[Shady]

38 minutes ago, Goddess said:

That's too bad.  Seems like a free-for-all.  Nothing is off limits in that religion.

OK with gays?  You're a Muslim

Think gays should be thrown off rooftops?  You're a Muslim

Like beating your wife?  You're a Muslim

Don't beat your wife?  You're a Muslim

Believe women are not humans?  You're a Muslim

Agree with equality between the sexes?  You're a Muslim

Love it when women have mutilated genitals?  Your'e a Muslim

Dont' agree with FGM?  You're a Muslim

 

I'm curious, (although you are not a Muslim but seem to speak for them) what is the point of this religion if they all can do whatever they want willy-nilly and its all okay and acceptable?  It seems to me that this kind of religion would actually attract a lot of miscreants, because there is nothing off limits.

Exactly right.  In reality he doesn’t speak for Muslims at all.  There are general accepted tenets that the vast majority of Muslims agree with and adhere to.  It’s not a choose your own adventure book like dialamah would like you to believe.

[dialamah]

6 minutes ago, Goddess said:

That's too bad.  Seems like a free-for-all.  Nothing is off limits in that religion.

OK with gays?  You're a Muslim

Think gays should be thrown off rooftops?  You're a Muslim

Like beating your wife?  You're a Muslim

Don't beat your wife?  You're a Muslim

Believe women are not humans?  You're a Muslim

Agree with equality between the sexes?  You're a Muslim

Love it when women have mutilated genitals?  Your'e a Muslim

Dont' agree with FGM?  You're a Muslim

Yup.  

I'm curious, (although you are not a Muslim but seem to speak for them) what is the point of this religion if they all can do whatever they want willy-nilly and its all okay and acceptable?  It seems to me that this kind of religion would actually attract a lot of miscreants, because there is nothing off limits.

Sure, miscreants and good people both.  But the inbuilt flexibility of holy books/religion is why people can move past the worst kinds of religious teachings.  If not, we'd still be burning witches over here.

Anyway, I thought you supported the reform of Islam?  If it were true that the only correct interpretation is always the very worst, they would not be able to reform.  Fortunately, thats not true - which is why we can see gay mosques and female run mosques, gay women in hijabs, and Muslim women uncovered.  Denying that Muslims can interpret their holy book in both good and bad ways seems odd to me.  As odd as it would be if DoP were insisting that all Christians must reject Gays because the Bible says so.  

[DogOnPorch]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

So you are kind of like a talking doll, your string gets pulled and you recite the Koran with no sense of how it applies in the lives of Muslims today.

Got it.

 

The claim in Islam is that The Quran is the very word of Allah (unedited by man)...the Bible and Torah make no such claims, but rather having human authors (often listed at the chapter head).

 

Who are we to challenge the VERY word of Allah?

The Quran says what it says.

[dialamah]

36 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

The claim in Islam is that The Quran is the very word of Allah (unedited by man)...the Bible and Torah make no such claims, but rather having human authors (often listed at the chapter head).

 

Who are we to challenge the VERY word of Allah?

The Quran says what it says.

So?  Christians claim the Bible is the Word of God.  Nonetheless, the practice of Christianity is quite different now than it was even a couple hundred years ago.   Does God change his mind on a regular basis, or have Christians changed the way they interpret his Word?

[Shady]

35 minutes ago, dialamah said:

So?  Christians claim the Bible is the Word of God.  Nonetheless, the practice of Christianity is quite different now than it was even a couple hundred years ago.   Does God change his mind on a regular basis, or have Christians changed the way they interpret his Word?

At least you admit that Islam is hundreds of years behind other religions, as are its followers. #Progress!

Edited December 14, 2018 by Shady
Hashtag

[dialamah]

14 minutes ago, Truth Detector said:

At least you admit that Islam is hundreds of years behind other religions, as are its followers. #Progress!

Islamic culture is approximately 50 years behind Western culture in terms of what is socially acceptable. For example, it was legal to rape your wife until the 1980s, in Canada.  My mother had to get my father's permission to get birth control in the late 50s.  If a woman was beaten, society and the law looked the other way; that started to change in the 60s and 70s.  We were still arresting gay people in the 70s, and gay bashing/killing was still fairly popular until the 80s, despite being illegal.  

Yes, we are certainly more progressive than virtually any Islamic country, not to mention virtually every country in the world, but that progress is measured in decades, not centuries.

[DogOnPorch]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

So?  Christians claim the Bible is the Word of God.  Nonetheless, the practice of Christianity is quite different now than it was even a couple hundred years ago.   Does God change his mind on a regular basis, or have Christians changed the way they interpret his Word?

 

Christians do not believe that God wrote the Bible.

[scribblet]

Amazon should've seen this one coming, especially if they actively recruited people knowing they were Muslims.    A prayer room isn't enough though, they need more time away from the job. 

https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/12/14/18141291/amazon-fulfillment-center-east-africa-workers-minneapolis

Khadra Ibrahin, a 28-year-old single mother of two and Somali immigrant living in Minneapolis, has been working at Amazon’s Shakopee fulfillment center for two years.

As a practicing Muslim, Ibrahin tries to pray five times a day. But because Amazon has the warehouse associates working on a strict hourly packing quota, she says she cannot take a prayer break. Associates are pressured to “make rate,” with the rate number increasing and decreasing depending on the season’s demand. The warehouse’s current packing rate is 240 boxes an hour, Ibrahin says, but it’s gone as high as 400. Associates are penalized if they fall behind this rate; they can get a write-up from a manager if they are too slow, which can lead to them being terminated.

.

[GostHacked]

On 12/13/2018 at 10:30 AM, DogOnPorch said:

 

In that spirit...

Which Muslims are the ones that are going to commit acts of terrorism? How do we tell?

[

Even Saudi Arabian medical students can fall into that category.  (Queue Dog saying something about You are free to ... or that I am an Islam supporter .. aka typical predictable old hat)

[turningrite]

On 12/13/2018 at 12:19 PM, DogOnPorch said:

So which Muslims are the terrorists? How does an infidel like me know which Muslims are murderous and which Muslims aren't?...playing wait and see seems inadvisable.

The problem, of course, lies in generalizing risks as being applicable to entire populations, however delineated. We know, for instance, that most rapists are men but that doesn't render all men rapists. I think that many people get upset when Muslims don't appear to vociferously repudiate religiously-motivated terrorism. But would we expect any other group to assume this kind of collective responsibility? We should consider how upset people got when political adherents to the SJW perspective put this kind of collective group-blaming philosophy into practice with M-103 in the aftermath of the Quebec City mosque murders. It's neither fair nor productive, whatever the foot on which the shoe ostensibly fits.

[DogOnPorch]

2 hours ago, turningrite said:

The problem, of course, lies in generalizing risks as being applicable to entire populations, however delineated. We know, for instance, that most rapists are men but that doesn't render all men rapists. I think that many people get upset when Muslims don't appear to vociferously repudiate religiously-motivated terrorism. But would we expect any other group to assume this kind of collective responsibility? We should consider how upset people got when political adherents to the SJW perspective put this kind of collective group-blaming philosophy into practice with M-103 in the aftermath of the Quebec City mosque murders. It's neither fair nor productive, whatever the foot on which the shoe ostensibly fits.

 

Perhaps...and nobody likes generalizations. But, Islam also has a historical track record of Jihad that transcends any current generation of people or any country's foreign policy. Europe, for example, tried its best for that past 1400 odd years to keep Islam OUT for rather...practical reasons. Reasons we can't seem to begin to fathom even though Islam is the same now...more or less...as it was in 700 AD.

But, times change and the latest incarnation of Rome is maybe doomed to fall...like all Romes. We deserve it, if so...as we literally threw open the gates.

[Argus]

On 12/14/2018 at 7:14 PM, dialamah said:

Yes, we are certainly more progressive than virtually any Islamic country, not to mention virtually every country in the world, but that progress is measured in decades, not centuries.

We are more progressive, sophisticated, scientifically and technically advanced than ALL Muslim countries, and the progress is measured in centuries, not decades. Unless you can demonstrate that Canada imprisoned or executed anyone for apostasy in the last few decades. Or that we stoned women to death for adultery or executed homosexuals, or hanged teenage girls for having sex outside of marriage, or that our religious police beat women with canes and clubs for showing ankles or hair on the street.

Further, there is no evidence the Muslim world is growing more enlightened. In fact, much of the evidence demonstrate it is becoming less so.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Argus

[Argus]

On 12/18/2018 at 4:35 PM, turningrite said:

The problem, of course, lies in generalizing risks as being applicable to entire populations, however delineated. We know, for instance, that most rapists are men but that doesn't render all men rapists. I think that many people get upset when Muslims don't appear to vociferously repudiate religiously-motivated terrorism. But would we expect any other group to assume this kind of collective responsibility? We should consider how upset people got when political adherents to the SJW perspective put this kind of collective group-blaming philosophy into practice with M-103 in the aftermath of the Quebec City mosque murders. It's neither fair nor productive, whatever the foot on which the shoe ostensibly fits.

The problem is in the underlying tenets of this faith and it's deep antipathy for those who it describes as 'unbelievers'. Islam teaches a deep disrespect and contempt for unbelievers. More than half of all its writings are on how to treat them, and little of that treatment is kind. The terrorists beheading people take their cue from Muhammed, who did this a lot. This is a religion inspired by a warrior prince from the sixth century. Needless to say, his view of anyone who disagreed with him are, to put it mildly, unkind.

If you are a follower of Islam - not extremist Islam but just your basic, garden variety Islam - you are taught to never trust or befriend unbelievers, that you may freely lie to them and commit acts of violence on them, and that you may rape and enslave their women. In Islamic writings there is the House of Peace - which is where Islam rules - and the House of War - which is everywhere else. This demonstrates how Islam sees the world. If you aren't with them, you are the enemy.

[turningrite]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

If you are a follower of Islam - not extremist Islam but just your basic, garden variety Islam - you are taught to never trust or befriend unbelievers, that you may freely lie to them and commit acts of violence on them, and that you may rape and enslave their women. In Islamic writings there is the House of Peace - which is where Islam rules - and the House of War - which is everywhere else. This demonstrates how Islam sees the world. If you aren't with them, you are the enemy.

I am a secularist, so I guess I'm the enemy. I think that as the human race evolves the logic and inherent humanity of secularism will increasingly become apparent and displace religious division, superstition and blind devotion. To paraphrase John Lennon, imagine a world without religion.... There'd be far less to kill and die for.

Edited December 21, 2018 by turningrite

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, turningrite said:

I am a secularist, so I guess I'm the enemy. I think that as the human race evolves the logic and inherent humanity of secularism will increasingly become apparent and displace religious division, superstition and blind devotion. To paraphrase John Lennon, imagine a world without religion.... There'd be far less to kill and die for.

(They are using "Imagine" to try and prevent suicides in Japan.  I would have thought it would have the opposite effect)

Anyway, I think the problem with Islam is that it can well see "that as the human race evolves the logic and inherent humanity of secularism will increasingly become apparent and displace religious division, superstition and blind devotion".  It will fight that with ever increasing barbarity.  It's the twenty first century, we have self driving cars, probes on Mars, 5G networks that connect almost everyone on the planet, and two men have just been sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy.  And as the Asia Bibi episode has shown us, much of the enlightened world quakes in its shoes when the prospect of upsetting their own sleeping giant rears its ugly head.  Sure, Islam will eventually go away, but it will leave a bloody mess behind it

[Argus]

39 minutes ago, turningrite said:

I am a secularist, so I guess I'm the enemy. I think that as the human race evolves the logic and inherent humanity of secularism will increasingly become apparent and displace religious division, superstition and blind devotion. To paraphrase John Lennon, imagine a world without religion.... There'd be far less to kill and die for.

If by 'secularist' you mean 'atheist' Islam proscribes the death penalty for you. I would advise against going to any Muslim country and suggesting you don't believe in God.

[Goddess]

38 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

(They are using "Imagine" to try and prevent suicides in Japan.  I would have thought it would have the opposite effect)

Anyway, I think the problem with Islam is that it can well see "that as the human race evolves the logic and inherent humanity of secularism will increasingly become apparent and displace religious division, superstition and blind devotion".  It will fight that with ever increasing barbarity.  It's the twenty first century, we have self driving cars, probes on Mars, 5G networks that connect almost everyone on the planet, and two men have just been sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy.  And as the Asia Bibi episode has shown us, much of the enlightened world quakes in its shoes when the prospect of upsetting their own sleeping giant rears its ugly head.  Sure, Islam will eventually go away, but it will leave a bloody mess behind it

Well, apparently it was only about 10 or 20 years ago that Western countries were killing people  for blasphemy, too.

[Guest]

Just now, Goddess said:

Well, apparently it was only about 10 or 20 years ago that Western countries were killing people  for blasphemy, too.

I can remember Mary Whitehouse getting the Gay News in her sights but I don't remember too many being killed for blasphemy when I was growing up.

Which western country specifically?

[Goddess]

4 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I can remember Mary Whitehouse getting the Gay News in her sights but I don't remember too many being killed for blasphemy when I was growing up.

Which western country specifically?

You would have to ask Dia.  She's the one that says Islam is only a couple of decades behind the West in everything.

Quote

Yes, we are certainly more progressive than virtually any Islamic country, not to mention virtually every country in the world but that progress is measured in decades, not centuries.,

 

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Goddess

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

You would have to ask Dia.  She's the one that says Islam is only a couple of decades behind the West in everything.

Oh, I'm sorry.  I was rather surprised at the notion.  I thought I'd been missing something.  I'll try to be quicker next time.