Big Guy Posted April 29, 2014 Report Posted April 29, 2014 The Harper government has announced a National Day of Honour commemorating the Afghanistan conflict for May 9 (10 days from to-day). This event will include a parade in Ottawa and a breakfast for families of soldiers and others who died during the mission. The commemoration is also supposed to be celebrated across the country at legion halls and military bases, and the Royal Canadian Legion says it has had little time to prepare. Is this a commemoration or celebration or memorial or reminder or ... ? Is this an appropriate use of funds and personnel? Why would we want to be reminded of and commemorate the Afghanistan war? Is not Nov 11 Remembrance day when we remember those who fought in wars? An interesting web page can be found at: http://www.app.forces.gc.ca/ndoh-jndc/national-day-of-honour.html Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
eyeball Posted April 29, 2014 Report Posted April 29, 2014 (edited) Is not Nov 11 Remembrance day when we remember those who fought in wars? Yes it is. Is this a commemoration or celebration or memorial or reminder or ... ? It's an exercise in propaganda and ideology. Is this an appropriate use of funds and personnel? It's good money after bad. Why would we want to be reminded of and commemorate the Afghanistan war? To write the history books that Ottawa would like to see written. I'd rather see a day being reserved for peace and the folly of declaring and waging wars. I also think the terms national and defence should be stricken from the name of the department responsible for Ottawa's armed expeditionary forces, at least until someone actually attacks us. And for the record I don't think Estevan Point really cuts it. We do have a coast guard after all, well...sort of. Edited April 29, 2014 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Moonlight Graham Posted April 29, 2014 Report Posted April 29, 2014 From the gov website: Canadians are invited to take part in the National Day of Honour on May 9. The Government of Canada has set aside this day to mark the end of our country’s military mission in Afghanistan. A national ceremony on Parliament Hill will pay tribute to the fallen, the sacrifices of the wounded, and the special burden borne by families. Canadians will be invited to honour the legacy of these heroes with a national moment of silence. I don't have a problem honouring the soldiers and the fallen, but that is distinctly different than honouring the mission itself. We should remember that we can honour the soldiers at the same time as disagreeing with the war (or parts of it). Military personanell don't get to pick what missions they're posted to. Like eyeball says, I also see elements of propaganda here. I also think the parade might be inappropriate, since parades are usually celebratory. We shouldn't be celebrating anything (besides bringing our troops home), only honouring. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Shady Posted April 29, 2014 Report Posted April 29, 2014 More faux outrage. You're clearly on the very fringe of public opinion, and very much out of the mainstream. It's a day to honour those who sacrificed the most. If you don't like it, tough. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted April 29, 2014 Report Posted April 29, 2014 I have no trouble honoring those who have died while serving in whatever theater. However having done a number of tours in Afghanistan, I realize what a waste of blood and treasure it was. And I think we all know who is on the fringe here, and if he doesn't like it, tough. Quote
WWWTT Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 Bit of a quick history lesson here for everyone. Canada has never been invaded by another that we did not declare war on first! Therefore, not one Canadian has ever died in the defence of Canadians. Those who died in the military, have died in the defence of the Canadian governments policies. Not Canadians! If you can not see the difference, then as far as I'm concerned, propaganda works. If you join the military thinking you're going to be fighting an invader threatening the citizens of Canada, then your odds of winning the lottery are probably better. Person who makes a sacrifice for the people of their country = hero. Person who makes a sacrifice for the government/group/corporation = mercenary. WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
Army Guy Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 I have no trouble honoring those who have died while serving in whatever theater. However having done a number of tours in Afghanistan, I realize what a waste of blood and treasure it was. And I think we all know who is on the fringe here, and if he doesn't like it, tough. Not everyone that served shares your opinion, but it has already been said here, this is not about if the mission was worth our nations time and money....It's to mark the end of the mission, and to pay tribute to the fallen, wounded, and the burden placed upon the families.... and all it costs is a few mins of silence.... Canadians are invited to take part in the National Day of Honour on May 9. The Government of Canada has set aside this day to mark the end of our country’s military mission in Afghanistan. A national ceremony on Parliament Hill will pay tribute to the fallen, the sacrifices of the wounded, and the special burden borne by families. Canadians will be invited to honour the legacy of these heroes with a national moment of silence. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 Bit of a quick history lesson here for everyone. Canada has never been invaded by another that we did not declare war on first! Therefore, not one Canadian has ever died in the defence of Canadians. Those who died in the military, have died in the defence of the Canadian governments policies. Not Canadians! If you can not see the difference, then as far as I'm concerned, propaganda works. If you join the military thinking you're going to be fighting an invader threatening the citizens of Canada, then your odds of winning the lottery are probably better. Person who makes a sacrifice for the people of their country = hero. Person who makes a sacrifice for the government/group/corporation = mercenary. WWWTT What kind of crazy statement is that, "Canada has never been invaded by another that we did not declare war on first! Therefore, not one Canadian has ever died in the defence of Canadians" Are you saying if war is declared by our Government , Canadians that answer the call to duty, are not fighting for Canadians, not fighting to defend Canada ....even when our enemies are on Canadian soil..... I mean once war is declared we should what go home, because we are no longer fighting for Canadians.....Perhaps we both studied different Canadian military history... War of 1812, WW I and WWII seen direct attacks on Canadian soil, with the loss of Canadian men, women, children on top of those the died or were wounded in those actions.... Now we have to change tomb stone data , rewrite history....Stop sending out Vet checks all because they were mercs instead of Canadian citizens answering a call to defend our country..... Perhaps you should read the oath of alligence every member swears to....defending the nation, from enemies foreign and domestic, and to uphold Canadian national interests regardless of where they are.....( part of those interests are the defence pacts we have signed with other nations)..... Sorry WWWTT, but i had expected more from you. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
WWWTT Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) What kind of crazy statement is that, "Canada has never been invaded by another that we did not declare war on first! Therefore, not one Canadian has ever died in the defence of Canadians" Are you saying if war is declared by our Government , Canadians that answer the call to duty, are not fighting for Canadians, not fighting to defend Canada ....even when our enemies are on Canadian soil..... I mean once war is declared we should what go home, because we are no longer fighting for Canadians.....Perhaps we both studied different Canadian military history... War of 1812, WW I and WWII seen direct attacks on Canadian soil, with the loss of Canadian men, women, children on top of those the died or were wounded in those actions.... Now we have to change tomb stone data , rewrite history....Stop sending out Vet checks all because they were mercs instead of Canadian citizens answering a call to defend our country..... Perhaps you should read the oath of alligence every member swears to....defending the nation, from enemies foreign and domestic, and to uphold Canadian national interests regardless of where they are.....( part of those interests are the defence pacts we have signed with other nations)..... Sorry WWWTT, but i had expected more from you.Nope sorry, but you're wrong. First off, the BNA act didn't happen until 1867, so anything before that is not included. Even after that, it is very debatable if Canada was still an independent country from Great Britain. See Boer war for more details. And yes, I am saying that when the government declared war in the past, it was never because we were invaded. And sorry, but this oath you are talking about has nothing to do with the foreign expeditions like Afghanistan. Maybe I should clarify something. The Canadian military does play an important role, but it's the Canadian government that uses our troops as mercenaries! WWWTT Edited April 30, 2014 by WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
waldo Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 Person who makes a sacrifice for the people of their country = hero. Person who makes a sacrifice for the government/group/corporation = mercenary. bizarro comment! as misquided as some feel the missions are, there is a need to recognize and acknowledge the military - to make the distinction between the military... and the mission. "Support the troops" comes in many flavours. One of those is to attempt to separate out the purposeful government propaganda within these types of events. One of the flavours isn't your ridiculous hero vs. merc nonsense. Quote
PIK Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 At least the government is not ashamed of it's armed forces and does'nt try to hide it's accomplishments. Medak pocket anyone??? I would not doubt it, that people on this board at this time are wondering WTF is he talking about.. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Keepitsimple Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) bizarro comment! as misquided as some feel the missions are, there is a need to recognize and acknowledge the military - to make the distinction between the military... and the mission. "Support the troops" comes in many flavours. One of those is to attempt to separate out the purposeful government propaganda within these types of events. One of the flavours isn't your ridiculous hero vs. merc nonsense. I agree Waldo - and I think the government has been pretty clear on the distinction - an acknowledgement of the military and their families and their mutual sacrifice. Edited April 30, 2014 by Keepitsimple Quote Back to Basics
GostHacked Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 I don't have a problem honouring the soldiers and the fallen, but that is distinctly different than honouring the mission itself. We should remember that we can honour the soldiers at the same time as disagreeing with the war (or parts of it). Military personanell don't get to pick what missions they're posted to. That is a good distinction to make. They are only following orders. Even right up to the top military brass. They are only following orders. I can make that excuse for the front line soldier, but I do not think that can apply to the top brass as they are the ones calling the shots. And that would be in accordance of foreign policy. Like eyeball says, I also see elements of propaganda here. I also think the parade might be inappropriate, since parades are usually celebratory. We shouldn't be celebrating anything (besides bringing our troops home), only honouring. Yeah, a parade seems... out of touch. Quote
waldo Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 I agree Waldo - and I think the government has been pretty clear on the distinction - an acknowledgement of the military and their families and their mutual sacrifice. fly-overs? Parades?... that kind of distinction lends itself to government propagandizing. Quote
eyeball Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 And now a word from the sponsors of this solemn commemorative event... This national day of honour is brought to you by Air Canada and VIA Rail.... The highlight for families arriving in Ottawa will be a private breakfast with Prime Minister Stephen Harper and other VIPs, with corporate donations of $10,000 or more guaranteeing your company prime signage and related advertising for the event.... One can’t help but be left with the impression that next week is all about marketing. In background material released by Harper’s office this week, there is a link to more information on the day. It is labelled “Related Product.” Story How long will it be until a soldier's uniform or military equipment display corporate logos? It's appropriate given how much war seems to be all about making the world safe for capitalism. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
PIK Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 fly-overs? Parades?... that kind of distinction lends itself to government propagandizing. So what ,we have a government that is proud of it's military and not afraid to show it unlike the other parrties. Again we can go back to the medak pocket story where chretien kept quiet the fact for 10 yrs that 60 canadians took on and beat down 2500 croats with armour. Because the liberals were to ashamed to admit that our soldiers fought and killed the enemy. And right now in this country and this post that is still true today, the left is ashamed of our military acheivements and perfers to hide them. There is a great show on that battle and how the soldiers would not tell anyone ,because people thought they were BSing because the liberal media never said boo about it, and nobody knew what these guys went thru. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Smallc Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 We have a government that makes a lot of mouth noises but stopped spending money. They disappoint me in this regard. Quote
WWWTT Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 bizarro comment! as misquided as some feel the missions are, there is a need to recognize and acknowledge the military - to make the distinction between the military... and the mission. "Support the troops" comes in many flavours. One of those is to attempt to separate out the purposeful government propaganda within these types of events. One of the flavours isn't your ridiculous hero vs. merc nonsense. Nope sorry, this is my opinion, just as you have your own my friend. Canadian government has gone to great lengths to obscure and change the role of the Canadian military. My comment is bold and provocative not by design, but because many people have been conditioned to see things in only a strict tunnel-vision perspective. And as far as I'm concerned, I'm on the side of history! WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
WWWTT Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 I agree Waldo - and I think the government has been pretty clear on the distinction - an acknowledgement of the military and their families and their mutual sacrifice. Never said that there was anything wrong in that. WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
WWWTT Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 That is a good distinction to make. They are only following orders. Even right up to the top military brass. They are only following orders. Same argument can be made in the defence of war criminals. WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
Shady Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 Nope sorry, this is my opinion, just as you have your own my friend. Canadian government has gone to great lengths to obscure and change the role of the Canadian military. My comment is bold and provocative not by design, but because many people have been conditioned to see things in only a strict tunnel-vision perspective. And as far as I'm concerned, I'm on the side of history! WWWTT The role hasn't changed much since WWI, WWII, Korea, etc. Quote
WWWTT Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 The role hasn't changed much since WWI, WWII, Korea, etc. I concede you are correct. It was always the intent of the government to use the military for their own campaigns, unrelated to the defence of her citizens. But I still believe that there is a shift away from using the military for domestic and search/rescue roles. WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
Shady Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 I concede you are correct. It was always the intent of the government to use the military for their own campaigns, unrelated to the defence of her citizens. That's just not true. I guess we can agree to disagree. Quote
WWWTT Posted April 30, 2014 Report Posted April 30, 2014 That's just not true. I guess we can agree to disagree. Agreed! WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
Big Guy Posted April 30, 2014 Author Report Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) Every democratic society which keeps an armed force, supports the soldiers who are doing the fighting. It does not necessarily support the mission. It is to the advantage of any government to blur the line between the two so that the government can try to transfer the good will towards the soldiers to a good will behind the government decision to send them into a conflict. Remember the government spin in relation to Afghanistan where you were either "with the troops or against them" and "Taliban Jack" when Layton questioned the mission. We were told to "stand behind the troops or in front of them". That worked for a few years and then the fiasco in Afghanistan started to turn into a quagmire with mission creep sending it into an unpopular direction. That is the way it has always been with the "pacifists" on one end of the scale and the "war mongers" on the other. It was interesting how after World War II, it was a scramble changing public perception of the "yellow menace" and "bloodthirsty killer Hun" into a bunch of good people misled by their Emperor ( and military aristocracy) and the Fuhrer. I do understand the need for propaganda, hate and fear to entice a normal human to seek and kill another human during battle. It goes against the nature of man. I believe that Canadians have always supported their troops. We already have Remembrance Day to contemplate the toll of war. We certainly do not need a reminder of a major government error in that Afghanistan expedition. Edited April 30, 2014 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
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