Is Gender Irrelevant?

[cybercoma]

And there's really nothing to add to what bleeding heart is saying.

[Black Dog]

There is some research to suggest that prescribing heroin is a suitable treatment for hard core addicts who have failed with other forms of treatment. Accepting this treatment possibility does not mean accepting it as the default treatment or as a desirable treatment.

Which would be valid if anybody had said anything about it being the default, as opposed to one possible solution ion a broad spectrum of possibilities.

In any case, you don't actually accept sexual reassignment as a possible treatment. The only acceptable treatment, in your words is "to teach people to accept the biology they have." You've stated that repeatedly throughout this discussion. Either you can't keep track of your own arguments or you think we can't.

The problem with activists today is they are not looking as sex changes as a last resort for people who have failed with less invasive treatments. They are looking at them as the default treatment for gender identity issues.

"Activists today?" Who specifically?

We see ridiculous normalization of an extreme intervention in the coverage of parents who put their gender confused kids on hormones so they can "make the choice" when they are older. It is barbaric.

I know the media loves to play these stories up, but is there any actual evidence this is a serious or widespread problem? Just guessing here, but I'd say there's probably far, far more parents who abuse or ostracize their own kids as a result of the children's gender issues, but those kids earn nary a peep of concern from you, nor does their treatment get labelled "barbaric".

Edited April 1, 2014 by Black Dog

[TimG]

I don't know why you insist upon repeating the addict analogy...it's promiscuously inaccurate. Transgender people are not suffering from anything resembling an addiction.

Why? Addicts have a treatable mental illness. So do people suffering from gender dysphoria. In fact, many people suffering from gender dysphoria are also addicts so I would say the two are more closely linked than you would like to believe.

I would say your reject of the addiction analogy is a reflection of your own bigotry rather than one based rational analysis of the evidence.

Edited April 1, 2014 by TimG

[bleeding heart]

Bigoted? Against whom? Addicts?

My rejection of the addiction analogy is that the analogy is ill-considered and silly.

Edited April 1, 2014 by bleeding heart

[Black Dog]

Why? Addicts have a treatable mental illness. So do people suffering from gender dysphoria. In fact, many people suffering from gender dysphoria are also addicts so I would say the two are more closely linked than you would like to believe.

Except, if your take on gender dysphoria is anything to go by, the only acceptable treatment for drug addiction in your view would be to tell addicts to stop doing drugs. Addiction, after all, being something that is all in their heads.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Black Dog

[bleeding heart]

Or else to accept their drug addiction as fine, and move on.

The argument's confused enough, so that the analogy is also confused.

At any rate, ultimately, as with some folks' views on homosexuality, I'm sensing that this is fundamentally merely an argument from a regressive "ick" factor, and retrograde ideas about sexuality and sexual identity.

[Black Dog]

Or else to accept their drug addiction as fine, and move on.

The argument's confused enough, so that the analogy is also confused.

At any rate, ultimately, as with some folks' views on homosexuality, I'm sensing that this is fundamentally merely an argument from a regressive "ick" factor, and retrograde ideas about sexuality and sexual identity.

Yeah, it's pretty much that.

I mean, it's the same goddamn argument people used to use (and some still do) about homosexuality. Pray the gay away.

[-1=e^ipi]

Concern troll bullshit.

The label 'concern troll' is often used by people that cannot accept that there might be diverse opinions on a topic and that want to create a false dichotomy.

Edited April 1, 2014 by -1=e^ipi

[Black Dog]

The label 'concern troll' is often used by people that cannot accept that there might be diverse opinions on a topic and that want to create a false dichotomy.

And it is also often used to refer to concern trolls.

[eyeball]

The label 'concern troll' is often used by people that cannot accept that there might be diverse opinions on a topic and that want to create a false dichotomy.

Yes, your concern is duly noted.

[Boges]

So "he" and "she" can be discriminatory now?

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/06/17/kelly-mcparland-vancouver-school-board-gender-policy-allows-xe-or-xem-in-place-of-he-or-her/?__federated=1

On Monday, the Vancouver School Board approved apolicy change aimed at accommodating gender identity and sexual orientation. The motive is admirable enough, to prevent students being singled out, bullied or otherwise discriminated against on the basis of gender. The complexity derives from the board’s determination to allow not just for actual gender, but “perceived” gender, i.e. the gender the student identifies with, as opposed to the gender on their birth certificate. Parents who questioned the change argued, quite reasonably, that six-year-olds aren’t qualified to understand all the intricacies of identity issues. Some of them can’t even use the toilet yet, much less decide which washroom to do it in.

Nonetheless, the school board forged ahead, even deciding to adopt new pronouns for those who would rather pick no gender at all. A last-minuteamendment mandated that “xe, xem and xyr” may be used in place of “he/she” or “him/her”. These are “sex-neutral third-person” terms used to repair the failure of the English language to allow for 21^stcentury gender sensitivities. The British long ago began using the term “one” – as in “one does wish for a glass of water” — to get around this problem, but it’s viewed as a bit cold and snooty, and therefore undesirable.

This sounds like trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Especially for really young children.

[jacee]

So "he" and "she" can be discriminatory now?

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/06/17/kelly-mcparland-vancouver-school-board-gender-policy-allows-xe-or-xem-in-place-of-he-or-her/?__federated=1

This sounds like trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Especially for really young children.

Obviously the policy applies to elementary & secondary, 6-18.

.

[GostHacked]

So "he" and "she" can be discriminatory now?

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/06/17/kelly-mcparland-vancouver-school-board-gender-policy-allows-xe-or-xem-in-place-of-he-or-her/?__federated=1

This sounds like trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Especially for really young children.

I would agree. Young kids are still developing their personalities. This kind of thought is completely off their radar. Ask what is important to them? First answer may be candy, and not their gender identity.

[GostHacked]

Obviously the policy applies to elementary & secondary, 6-18.

.

It's a terrible policy. The human race has two genders. Everything else is anomalies and overall not beneficial for the continuation of the human race. I would hate to see the day where someone is called a 'genderist' by not properly addressing their desired gender when their body is the opposite. ... Wait we are already seeing this.

What is causing this rise in these cases? How many are there to warrant this kind of action by the schools in BC?

[-1=e^ipi]

xe, xem and xyr

How do you even pronounce this?

Also, is xyr the possessive pronoun or the object or both? I assume the possessive pronoun since you also have xem, which is probably the object.

[jacee]

It's a terrible policy. The human race has two genders.

Obviously not.

Everything else is anomalies and overall not beneficial for the continuation of the human race.

That's ridiculous.

I would hate to see the day where someone is called a 'genderist' by not properly addressing their desired gender when their body is the opposite. ... Wait we are already seeing this.

You can often tell by the clothes and hairstyles they choose. Makes it much easier to address them properly than frisking them for a penis.

What is causing this rise in these cases?

Because kids are now freeer to tell the truth and they have more support.

How many are there to warrant this kind of action by the schools in BC?

Must be enough.

.

Edited June 18, 2014 by jacee

[WestCoastRunner]

It's a terrible policy. The human race has two genders. Everything else is anomalies and overall not beneficial for the continuation of the human race. I would hate to see the day where someone is called a 'genderist' by not properly addressing their desired gender when their body is the opposite. ... Wait we are already seeing this.

What is causing this rise in these cases? How many are there to warrant this kind of action by the schools in BC?

The human race also has "Intersex” which is:

"a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male. For example, a person might be born appearing to be female on the outside, but having mostly male-typical anatomy on the inside. Or a person may be born with genitals that seem to be in-between the usual male and female types—for example, a girl may be born with a noticeably large clitoris, or lacking a vaginal opening, or a boy may be born with a notably small penis, or with a scrotum that is divided so that it has formed more like labia. Or a person may be born with mosaic genetics, so that some of her cells have XX chromosomes and some of them have XY."

Intersex children identify with a male or female identity. Which bathroom should they use? Neither? Should they use the schoolyard to do their business?

[GostHacked]

WCR. Genetic mutations. To me that means something went wrong in the DNA during pregnancy or during conception. If you compare that to the general population their numbers are small. But larger than ever in the past.

Anything other than a male or female (true for most species really) are mutations. Most likely due to environmental factors like pollution.

[Rue]

One's gender on birth is a physical construct not a social construct.

It is true on birth there are those born with both sets of genitilia.

It is true that AFTER birth persons may choose to want to change their gender or identify as the other gender.

The fact is a birth certificate is an identification tool.

It was not intended for anything else.

If you want to change your physical construct, then do it, and change your birth certificate.

Otherwise if you wan to play out some social construct about yourself being a man trapped in a woman'sbody or vice versa the arena for that is with your doctor in private discussing what you want to do about it.

This need to drag basic government services into some passion play is nonsense.

To have a penis or not have a penis that is the question? No. The government is not some stage for an update on a Shakespeare.

[cybercoma]

People on this forum are so enlightened when it comes to gender issues. The dialogue is always informative and intelligent.

[Boges]

People on this forum are so enlightened when it comes to gender issues. The dialogue is always informative and intelligent.

I think the goalposts have moved to much for people to adapt.

I think many can appreciate there are people who believe they would be happier living as a different gender to the one they were born. But at the same time, to officially change one's gender shouldn't be a decision taken lightly especially if government funds would go to providing them with the medical treatment that would "somewhat" physically change their gender. I say somewhat because no one can truly be 100% the opposite gender than the one they were when they born.

But the idea of someone being "two-spirited" kind of blows that idea out of the water. Now someone can identify with both genders at the same time and would expect to live as both genders. And in the instance of the story I posted, teacher would be allowing children to identify as any gender they please even some mysterious third gender and not inform their parents that the child feels that way.

I personally would like to know how common this it is among people before public institutions start having to accommodate people who reject any gender identifications.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Boges

[cybercoma]

I don't think people make these decisions "lightly" as you assumed in your post, nor is being two-spirited something that happens now as opposed to before. Moreover, it really doesn't matter how common something is for it to be a legitimate concern and an issue. Stop treating people differently because of their gender. It's not rocket science.

[Boges]

Stop treating people differently because of their gender. It's not rocket science.

How can you treat someone anyway if they don't identify with either gender?

I've never met someone like this so I'm unsure how exactly they'd try to live their life.

[cybercoma]

How can you treat someone anyway if they don't identify with either gender?

I've never met someone like this so I'm unsure how exactly they'd try to live their life.

Why is someone's gender important to how you treat them?

[Boges]

Why is someone's gender important to how you treat them?

I act different around women and men all the time. Not better or worse, different.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Boges