Is Gender Irrelevant?

[Boges]

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/health/Gender+doesn+belong+birth+certificate+says/9662384/story.html

A Saskatoon mom has filed a human rights complaint over the province's requirement for sex to be listed on birth certificates.

"I think it's premature to identify a gender for someone (in infancy)," Fran Forsberg said in an interview. "Who are we to say what a person's gender is?" Forsberg's six-year old daughter Renn was born male, but around the age of three began to express herself as a girl. Renn had started showing self-destructive behaviour, but that ceased when she began "gravitating to what society says (are) female clothes," Forsberg said.

"As soon as we listened to our child and allowed her to be who she is, then she was a lot happier," she said, noting birth certificates are used for registering for school, library cards and licences.

Renn's birth certificate identifies her as male. Forsberg said she doesn't "feel like that's anyone's business."

That 'M' or 'F' can be changed if a person has sexual reassignment surgery, but "there are trans people who don't want to alter their bodies," Forsberg said.

This can only be described as a slippery slope. So if someone can be legally "Two-Spirited" or "Gender Fluid" that means they can be man one day and a woman the other day. That doesn't fit into the way we, as a society, separate genders in sports, change rooms, bathrooms, etc.

We're not talking about people who choose to be transgendered as an adult and take the proper avenues to medically change their gender of live as the opposite gender.

If male child can simply say they're a female and that's that, then who's to stop ANY male from using a women's change room or bathroom or participate in a woman's sport's league.

If this woman is somehow successful then it would render gender identities meaningless.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Boges

[Black Dog]

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/health/Gender+doesn+belong+birth+certificate+says/9662384/story.html

This can only be described as a slippery slope. So if someone can be legally "Two-Spirited" or "Gender Fluid" that means they can be man one day and a woman the other day. That doesn't fit into the way we, as a society, separate genders in sports, change rooms, bathrooms, etc.

We're not talking about people who choose to be transgendered as an adult and take the proper avenues to medically change their gender of live as the opposite gender.

If male child can simply say they're a female and that's that, then who's to stop ANY male from using a women's change room or bathroom or participate in a woman's sport's league.

I think in such a society it would be very easy to pick out the pervs and opportunists.

If this woman is somehow successful then it would render gender identities meaningless.

Well gender is largely a social construct...

[Boges]

I think in such a society it would be very easy to pick out the pervs and opportunists.

Even if it was, would there be any legal repercussions? Barbara Hall seems to think there shouldn't be.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/15/shocking-case-proves-tobys-law-is-flawed

Well gender is largely a social construct...

That's what I'm asking, should the "social construct" of gender be removed? In some science fiction movies (Starship Troopers for one) show men and women showering together.

Is separating people in certain environments because of the gender of their birth an outdated practice?

Edited March 27, 2014 by Boges

[Shady]

Gender is based on science. This story is absurd.

[Black Dog]

Even if it was, would there be any legal repercussions? Barbara Hall seems to think there shouldn't be.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/15/shocking-case-proves-tobys-law-is-flawed

It doesn't say what you say it says. There's nothing in there about anyone saying there should be no legal repercussions for perverts.

That's what I'm asking, should the "social construct" of gender be removed? In some science fiction movies (Starship Troopers for one) show men and women showering together.

Is separating people in certain environments because of the gender of their birth an outdated practice?

i don't how that would be achieved. It would help if people were more educated about gender so you didn't hear silly statements like "gender is based on science."

[Michael Hardner]

This can only be described as a slippery slope. So if someone can be legally "Two-Spirited" or "Gender Fluid" that means they can be man one day and a woman the other day. That doesn't fit into the way we, as a society, separate genders in sports, change rooms, bathrooms, etc.

...

If male child can simply say they're a female and that's that, then who's to stop ANY male from using a women's change room or bathroom or participate in a woman's sport's league.

If this woman is somehow successful then it would render gender identities meaningless.

Yes, the change to change rooms is happening, and it's going mainstream as evidenced by the #2 Conservative in the country supporting it last time around.

I don't think meaningless captures it. The point is that gender does mean something to people, so they would like the right to identify themselves regardless of biology. It's definitely an interesting question, and given the support that I have described it's probably closer to happening than you think.

[Boges]

So I guess this has turned to a debate about gender vs sex.

Perhaps the title of this thread should be "Is Sex Irrelevant". But sex is commonly attributed to an act I'd argue is most certainly NOT irrelevant.

The woman in the story in the OP wants Birth Certificates to NOT assign a sex to a child. I guess because that allows society to determine their gender.

I think doing that would open a pandora's box, because clearly there are differences between different sexes and I think they still should be recognized.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Boges

[Black Dog]

So I guess this has turned to a debate about gender vs sex.

Perhaps the title of this thread should be "Is Sex Irrelevant". But sex is commonly attributed to an act I'd argue is most certainly NOT irrelevant.

The woman in the story in the OP wants Birth Certificates to NOT assign a sex to a child. I guess because that allows society to determine their gender.

I think doing that would open a pandora's box, because clearly there are differences between different sexes and I think they still should be recognized.

What does that mean?

i think the person who doesn't want to put their child's biological sex on the birth certificate is out to lunch. There's nothing deterministic about that and if the kid actually grows up and wants to identify as something else, they can change it or ignore it.

But I really don't understand what the slippery slope into pandora's box is all about here.

[Boges]

What does that mean?

i think the person who doesn't want to put their child's biological sex on the birth certificate is out to lunch. There's nothing deterministic about that and if the kid actually grows up and wants to identify as something else, they can change it or ignore it.

But I really don't understand what the slippery slope into pandora's box is all about here.

That fact that you think that means that you believe someone's "sex" means something. I started the thread to ask what the implication in our society if this woman were successful.

And are we down the road where someone isn't assigned a sex or gender? Children are, somehow, all treated the same.

[Black Dog]

That fact that you think that means that you believe someone's "sex" means something. I started the thread to ask what the implication in our society if this woman were successful.

Insofar as one's biological sex at birth means something? Sure I guess.

And are we down the road where someone isn't assigned a sex or gender? Children are, somehow, all treated the same.

That won't happen, but like I said, a little push down that road would be fine.

[Shady]

Insofar as one's biological sex at birth means something? Sure I guess. That won't happen, but like I said, a little push down that road would be fine.

Yes, let's pretend science/biology doesn't exist.

[Mighty AC]

I think gender is more of spectrum than a binary option. Still I don't see the problem identifying one's sex at birth on the certificate.

[Black Dog]

Yes, let's pretend science/biology doesn't exist.

We're talking about gender as opposed to biological sex. Go read a book or something.

[Moonlight Graham]

Gender is socially constructed (in many but not all ways IMO). But biological sex isn't. The mom in the OP doesn't understand the difference. Her kid was born biologically male and will always be male, and cutting off the penis and testicles and/or injecting hormones etc. will never change that.

As far as I know they don't list gender on a birth certificate so the mom can relax.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Moonlight Graham

[cybercoma]

There have been many gender discussions on this forum and people can't even distinguish between biological sex and gender, let alone the fact that neither is binary. That's without even getting into gender expression, gender identity, and sexual orientation. I don't find these discussions to be very productive here. They generally end up with people shouting their poorly informed opinions without taking any time whatsoever to understand the experiences of others. So good luck with this chat.

Edited March 27, 2014 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

Gender is based on science. This story is absurd.

Case in point.

[cybercoma]

Yes, let's pretend science/biology doesn't exist.

This is so priceless coming from the biggest mouthpiece for the Christian Right in America on this forum. How're those creation museums coming along?

Edited March 27, 2014 by cybercoma

[Shady]

Gender is socially constructed (in many but not all ways IMO). But biological sex isn't. The mom in the OP doesn't understand the difference. Her kid was born biologically male and will always be male, and cutting off the penis and testicles and/or injecting hormones etc. will never change that.

As far as I know they don't list gender on a birth certificate so the mom can relax.

No it's not a social construct. It's a reflection of ones sex.

[Shady]

This is so priceless coming from the biggest mouthpiece for the Christian Right in America on this forum. How're those creation museums coming along?

Complete nonsense. I'm not Christian, nor any Christian mouthpiece. I have no idea what you're talking about. It's pure projection on your part.

[cybercoma]

I'm talking about you having absolutely no idea what you're talking about, despite it being explained to you many times. It's incredibly annoying watching you dance around like a peacock displaying your ignorance as a badge of honour.

[Shady]

I'm talking about you having absolutely no idea what you're talking about, despite it being explained to you many times. It's incredibly annoying watching you dance around like a peacock displaying your ignorance as a badge of honour.

Explained to me? A bunch of liberal feel-good, do whatever you'd like hogwash that ignores, sex, the differences between the sexes, and basis of gender from these differences.

[cybercoma]

You keep saying people are ignoring biological sex and that hasn't happened once in this thread. You want to use terms that have meanings, but you want to make up your own definitions and expect everyone else to agree to them. How about you, as another member posted, pick up a book and start using the terms properly, so you can actually look like you know what you're saying.

[Moonlight Graham]

As a man, I find a lot of male gender stereotypes stupid and frustrating, These stupid stereotypes usually revolve around how to be "manly" (basically tough-guy BS).

[Moonlight Graham]

Explained to me? A bunch of liberal feel-good, do whatever you'd like hogwash that ignores, sex, the differences between the sexes, and basis of gender from these differences.

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

What is the difference between sex and gender?

Sex = male and female

Gender = masculine and feminine

So in essence:

Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.

Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine.

So while your sex as male or female is a biological fact that is the same in any culture, what that sex means in terms of your gender role as a 'man' or a 'woman' in society can be quite different cross culturally. These 'gender roles' have an impact on the health of the individual.

In sociological terms 'gender role' refers to the characteristics and behaviours that different cultures attribute to the sexes. What it means to be a 'real man' in any culture requires male sex plus what our various cultures define as masculine characteristics and behaviours, likewise a 'real woman' needs female sex and feminine characteristics.

To summarise:

'man' = male sex+ masculine social role

(a 'real man', 'masculine' or 'manly')

'woman' = female sex + feminine social role

(a 'real woman', 'feminine' or 'womanly')

Edited March 28, 2014 by Moonlight Graham

[Shady]

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

Masculinity and Femininity are just extensions of the physical, biological and mental differences between sexes. To deny these differences is to deny science and reality. Just more denierism and the left's war on science. Prenatal science denial is still the denial du jour though.