Is Gender Irrelevant?

[Black Dog]

Pathetic. Can you really not see the difference between treating adults as equals and encouraging kids to consider self mutilation if they are having trouble fitting in? What is next for you?

Yeah, except your hostility and contempt towards trans people and anyone who doesn't conform to rigid, biologically imposed gender performances is well documented here.

What is next for you? Schools recommending breast augmentation for insecure teenage girls? How about course on the proper way to be an an anorexic or tips on using steroids for boys that don't feel manly enough? Is there any barbarism that you won't rationalize if it fits your preconceptions?

I'm sorry the realization that your arguments are logically and tonally consistent with those used by the likes of the KKK and the Moral Majority is causing you to indulge in such sad fallacies.

[Black Dog]

Let's throw another twist. A gay male and a straight female both like men. Maybe we need another bathroom for gay males, as I might be uncomfortable with that situation. Yes I am being a little facetious.

So

Male - straight

Male - gay

Women- straight

Women - Gay

Transgendered

Gender confused of undecided.

When would one draw the line and say, that's enough?

And why would who you screw have any bearing on where you shit?

Edited June 23, 2014 by Black Dog

[jacee]

Pathetic. Can you really not see the difference between treating adults as equals and encouraging kids to consider self mutilation if they are having trouble fitting in? What is next for you? Schools recommending breast augmentation for insecure teenage girls? How about course on the proper way to be an an anorexic or tips on using steroids for boys that don't feel manly enough? Is there any barbarism that you won't rationalize if it fits your preconceptions?

You haven't answered my question:

Are you seriously suggesting that transgender identities only exist because adults are imposing transgender ideas on kids?

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Edited June 23, 2014 by jacee

[Boges]

Are you seriously suggesting that transgender identities only exist because adults are imposing transgender ideas on kids?

I don't think it's draconian to consider that someone having a full understanding of their gender identity should probably wait until some form of sexual maturity has been achieved.

Would someone ever consider a boy thinking girls have kooties a pre-cursor to homosexuality?

So why would someone consider a child taking interests in things that generally are gender stereotypes for the opposing gender would indicate they would prefer living the rest of their life as a gender other than that of their birth?

Edited June 23, 2014 by Boges

[Michael Hardner]

I think at the very least there are people who wonder about the things TimG and the others bring forward. This is a new idea to many people, so let's consider the questions with an open mind where they are asked in good faith.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm sorry the realization that your arguments are logically and tonally consistent with those used by the likes of the KKK and the Moral Majority is causing you to indulge in such sad fallacies.

You could just consider the question without bringing in the baggage of your opinions on the poster too.

[jacee]

I think at the very least there are people who wonder about the things TimG and the others bring forward. This is a new idea to many people, so let's consider the questions with an open mind where they are asked in good faith.

I am asking in good faith because Tim has not yet addressed the fact that some people simply do identify themselves as the opposite of their physical gender, without persuasion by others.

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[GostHacked]

And why would who you screw have any bearing on where you shit?

So you don't mind if I use the women's washroom then?

[Michael Hardner]

I am asking in good faith because Tim has not yet addressed the fact that some people simply do identify themselves as the opposite of their physical gender, without persuasion by others.

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Ok. Is the idea, then, that you suspect TimG doesn't believe gender identity is a thing ? That would likely be a fringe position, I agree.

[jacee]

So you don't mind if I use the women's washroom then?

No I don't care.

It's becoming a non issue anyway.

Fathers have to take their daughters into washrooms, and mothers their sons.

If someone's in a cubicle, how on earth does it matter to me what physical equipment they have? It's really nobody's business.

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[jacee]

Ok. Is the idea, then, that you suspect TimG doesn't believe gender identity is a thing ? That would likely be a fringe position, I agree.

Yes, that's what I'm asking him.

If you look back thrrough his posts, you'll see that he hasn't addressed that.

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Edited June 23, 2014 by jacee

[Black Dog]

So you don't mind if I use the women's washroom then?

Women might regardless of where you stick your prick recreationaly.

[jacee]

Women might regardless of where you stick your prick recreationaly.

If a trans person identifies, dresses and conducts herself as a woman, how would anybody in a washroom know or care what's under her clothes?

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[TimG]

I am asking in good faith because Tim has not yet addressed the fact that some people simply do identify themselves as the opposite of their physical gender, without persuasion by others.

Some adults get breast implants, some people get grotesque body piercings, some people get sex changes. I see no difference between those examples and as adults they are entitled to make decisions for themselves as they see fit even if they are symptoms of underlying mental health issues. The issue is what messages should be given to kids in schools. I don't think schools should be facilitate parents that tell girls to consider breast enhancement surgery because they are not happy with their body nor should they facilitate parents who tell their kids to consider a sex change because they believe they are the wrong sex. The message that schools should send is that healthy adults accept the body they have and if you can't accept the body you have then you have issues you need to work on.

The only caveat is that biologically ambiguous kids can create challenges and the schools should try to accommodate these kids. But there is a difference between making exceptions for kids with a medical basis for their confusion and a open ended policy that treats gender confusion as a normal choice for any kid with coping problems.

Edited June 23, 2014 by TimG

[Michael Hardner]

The message that schools should send is that healthy adults accept the body they have and if you can't accept the body you have then you have issues you need to work on.

As ever, you choose your words carefully. "Issues" is indeed the correct word, but the term "you have issues" is colloquially equivalent to "you are inferior". Let's see what others say.

[jacee]

Some adults get breast implants, some people get grotesque body piercings, some people get sex changes. I see no difference between those examples and as adults they are entitled to make decisions for themselves as they see fit even if they are symptoms of underlying mental health issues. The issue is what messages should be given to kids in schools. I don't think schools should be facilitate parents that tell girls girls to consider breast enhancement surgery because they are not happy with their body nor should they facilitate parents who tell their kids to consider a sex change because they believe they are the wrong sex. The message that schools should send is that healthy adults accept the body they have and if you can't accept the body you have then you have issues you need to work on.

And if the child identifies as the other gender, that can be accepted and respected.

That's the only 'issue' here, the reality that some children do identify as the other gender, and have a right to have their gender identity respected, be respected as human beings without discrimination.

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[TimG]

As ever, you choose your words carefully. "Issues" is indeed the correct word, but the term "you have issues" is colloquially equivalent to "you are inferior". Let's see what others say.

Perhaps the slang term was not the best. You appeared to understand my intent. Gender confusion is not something to celebrate or encourage. It is a problem. Just like a teenage girl believing her breasts are too small is a problem. Edited June 23, 2014 by TimG

[Michael Hardner]

Perhaps the slang term was not the best. You appeared to understand my intent. Gender confusion is not something to celebrate or encourage. It is a problem. Just like a teenage girl believing her breasts are too small is a problem.

Maybe I would say "challenge" instead of "problem". While they mean the same thing, a challenge is something to be accepted while a problem is to be solved. When the teenage girl is 18 she can consider her situation with an adult perspective and decide to change it, accept it or to continue to think about it until she decides later on down the road.

I feel that the lesson to be learned from the recent popular acceptance of same-sex rights is that listening, empathy and dialogue are the way to solutions, not refusals, denials and edicts.

[TimG]

When the teenage girl is 18 she can consider her situation with an adult perspective and decide to change it, accept it or to continue to think about it until she decides later on down the road.

You seem to be implying the "challenge" is caused by others that don't accept the gender confusion as normal. I reject this emphasis. It is a challenge but in the same way that any other mental health issue is a challenge for the people that suffer from it.

The main point is, as an adult, she should be free to make her choices but no one will say it is wrong for a teacher/doctor/parent to tell this girl that she should learn to accept the body she has. What I object to is the attempt to normalize gender identity issues and vilify people who suggest that it would be best for people to accept their biological gender even if they decide otherwise as an adult.

Edited June 23, 2014 by TimG

[jacee]

The main point is, as an adult, she should be free to make her choices but no one will say it is wrong for a teacher/doctor/parent to tell this girl that she should learn to accept the body she has.

We are saying it's wrong to discriminate - impose your judgement - on those who identify with the opposite gender.

It's not your business.

What I object to is the attempt to normalize gender identity issues and vilify people who suggest that it would be best for people to accept their biological gender even if they decide otherwise as an adult.

It's not your business what's under their clothes. A person deserves respect regardless.

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[Black Dog]

What I object to is the attempt to normalize gender identity issues and vilify people who suggest that it would be best for people to accept their biological gender even if they decide otherwise as an adult.

You've never once answered the seemingly simple question of why it's best for people to accept their biological gender.

[Boges]

We are saying it's wrong to discriminate - impose your judgement - on those who identify with the opposite gender.

It's not your business.

It's not your business what's under their clothes. A person deserves respect regardless.

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Who's imposing judgement but the woman in the OP who doesn't want Birth Certificates to include a gender or the School Board who tells teachers they must refer to students by a made up pronouns and not inform their parents of their wishes.

[Bonam]

You've never once answered the seemingly simple question of why it's best for people to accept their biological gender.

For the same reason it's best for people to accept their biological height, skin color, chest size, eye size, etc. Once people are adults they are free to undergo surgeries to change these things if they like, but kids should not be encouraged to do so.

[Black Dog]

For the same reason it's best for people to accept their biological height, skin color, chest size, eye size, etc.

And that reason is?

[jacee]

For the same reason it's best for people to accept their biological height, skin color, chest size, eye size, etc. Once people are adults they are free to undergo surgeries to change these things if they like, but kids should not be encouraged to do so.

Surgery isn't the topic.

Freedom from discrimination for gender identity is the topic.

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