GostHacked Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 A kilt is not a dress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) You can't imagine people having any other reasons or purposes than the ones that your extremely limited imagination can come up with.Actually, I am aware of the many BS excuses that people cook up to rationalize their behavior. I just have no patience for them. I look at things pragmatically and once you eliminate the BS excuses you often left with simple truths. In this case, you don't like the truths because they undermine your convoluted world view. Edited March 28, 2014 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Which is what I was alluding to when I said "that's not to say there aren't intrinsic differences between the sexes". However, only a moron would suggest that all gender differences are biological and that social and cultural forces don't play a massive part in determining gender norms. Agreed on all points there. There are also environmental factors that are contributing to this crossing of gender traits. Some studies point to chemicals in plastic that can cause alterations in our gender identity. But along with that and social engineering is the major force in why this is changing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Why don't you explain the utilitarian purpose a dress has? As far as I can see, a dress, unlike jeans or overalls, has no purpose other than to create an image for an observer. The only guys I have seen that ever looked good in a dress were drag queens. Other than that, a pretty lady in a nice dress is damn sexy. And sexy does not always mean 'slutty'. Most men just simply look very bad in a dress. Therefore, it follows that anyone obsessed with wearing dresses against social convention has a serious body image problem which would be accepted as a mental disorder if we were talking about anything other than "gender". There was a time where it was simply unacceptable for women to wear pants. Men don't wear dresses to feel pretty, or do they? If they do, then they need to question a few things about themselves, could be some denial thing going on. It also can make for great comedy, Monty Python did it quite often. There is a lot of social constructs that have put the male and female into two categories. And now through much of the same social constructs are trying to not only blur the line between male and female, but also to bring in a few more 'genders'. As there seems to be a growing population of hermaphrodites. Which have always existed, but nothing compared to what we are encountering today. Maybe simply because as humans, there are over 7 billion of us. But it is nothing more than a biological anomaly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Men don't wear dresses to feel pretty, or do they? If they do, then they need to question a few things about themselves, could be some denial thing going on.This is my entire point. Women I know only wear dresses to look pretty (otherwise they wear more utilitarian clothing) so it is not unreasonable to say that transvestites do it for the same reason. That said, wearing drag for entertainment purposes is a practice purpose but the entertainment value comes entirely from the clearly defined gender norms which transvestites want to get rid of. Edited March 28, 2014 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 This is my entire point. Women I know only wear dresses to look pretty (otherwise they wear more utilitarian clothing) so it is not unreasonable to say that transvestites do it for the same reason. That said, wearing drag for entertainment purposes is a practice purpose but the entertainment value comes entirely from the clearly defined gender norms which transvestites want to get rid of. So is your beef with certain populations within our society that forces the dress upon women? Like the Amish and certain sects of Christianity. Or do you have a problem with the dress on the whole? Trying to gauge your angle here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Women I know only wear dresses to look pretty (otherwise they wear more utilitarian clothing) so it is not unreasonable to say that transvestites do it for the same reason. Dresses are absolutely functional. On a hot summer day, it's great to wear a spaghetti strap dress and sandals. Why wear anything else? And if a woman is feeling bloated, dresses are very functional in that respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) So is your beef with certain populations within our society that forces the dress upon women? Like the Amish and certain sects of Christianity. Or do you have a problem with the dress on the whole? Trying to gauge your angle here.By beef is with the hypocrisy. I think the "be yourself" and "reject peer pressure" message is the healthiest message to get out to people but with transgender the message is "reject yourself - cave into peer pressure" where the self which people are rejecting is their biological identity and the peer pressure they are giving into shown by their desire to be perceived by others as having a gender that does not match their biology. Edited March 28, 2014 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Wrong. In both cases the problem is connected to an obsessive concern about what OTHER PEOPLE think of them. Obsessive concern about what others think of you is a mental health issue whether it is about body shape or gender identity. Cite? And what defines "obsessive" anyway? IMO, obsessive concern with what othe rpeople think of you is not the same thing as gender dysphoria at all. Lets take a hypothetical society where women wore pants and men worse dresses. I am pretty sure in that society the gender confused men would want to wear pants. If you accept that premise then you agree that the choice to wear a dress by man in our society is not about personal expression but about a desire to perpetrate gender stereotypes. i.e. it is not enough for a man to feel like woman - he is not happy unless others see him as a woman. If it was just really about being himself he would feel no need to dress up in order to play the gender role that he desires. Everybody dresses up to play the gender role they desire without necessarily being obsessed. Why should people who are performing as a different gender than their biological sex be any different? Indeed, if someone is, say, biologically male but identifies as female, dressing up as male would be the performance (it's called "passing"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 A kilt is not a dress. Hamish: Well, we didn't get dressed up for nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) By beef is with the hypocrisy. I think the "be yourself" and "reject peer pressure" message is the healthiest message to get out to people but with transgender the message is "reject yourself - cave into peer pressure" where the self which people are rejecting is their biological identity and the peer pressure they are giving into shown by their desire to be perceived by others as having a gender that does not match their biology. And your message to transgender people is "be yourself (as long as your self is rigidly defined by your genitalia and nothing else because if you think otherwise you are probably crazy)". Super healthy. Edited March 28, 2014 by Black Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 By beef is with the hypocrisy. I think the "be yourself" and "reject peer pressure" message is the healthiest message to get out to people but with transgender the message is "reject yourself - cave into peer pressure" where the self which people are rejecting is their biological identity and the peer pressure they are giving into shown by their desire to be perceived by others as having a gender that does not match their biology. You are eluding to more peer pressure than anything biological now. Peer pressure is something I never understood or got caught up in. Never got on trendy bandwagons. I think it is a matter of self confidence and knowing who you are and what you are. Those that are self confident are not the ones throwing this kind of stuff in our face. Otherwise we call them attention whores and the like. Always wanting to be the center of attention because 'woe is me' rhetoric. I guess some of those men aught to be women for they lack balls/testosterone in the first place. You raise a great point about how it is not applied the same with both sides, and that is part of the issue with defining what is the real problem/issue here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Hamish: [/size] Would have been better out the mouth of a robust scottish male. A kil' eh nau' a dress LADDIE !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 How are you going to identify someone as male when they don't identify or express themselves as male (or vice versa). See if they have a penis or the SRY gene? Do you need an intro to biology or something? As far as I can see, a dress, unlike jeans or overalls, has no purpose other than to create an image for an observer. Therefore, it follows that anyone obsessed with wearing dresses against social convention has a serious body image problem which would be accepted as a mental disorder if we were talking about anything other than "gender". I already stated: dresses serve no purpose other than to project an image for other humans to see. You have not refuted this. I think these claims are too strong. Maybe someone just likes dresses because they like their shape or colour and the appearance when they wear them. Or maybe someone merely wants to defy social convention for the sake of defying social convention. If someone likes dubstep against social convention, are they now mentally ill? That would be ludicrous. In fact, we spend a lot of time trying to teach kids to accept the body they have (e.g. Dove's true beauty campaign) yet this entire message is tossed out the window as soon as someone decides their "gender" does not match the physical body they have. Why the hypocrisy? Exactly. If there are no gender roles and people should accept themselves for who they are, then there is less need to change gender identity. Dresses are not convenient I know people that would disagree with you on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Tim is the expert on what women like to wear and what they find functional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 I think this discussion is necessarily subjective because people can really only say for sure how *they* feel about their gender. I, for one, don't put on my clothes in the morning thinking "There. Now people will perceive me as a man." I just find men's clothes fit me, and feel psychically comfortable on me. No idea why. I have worn other costumes for festive occasions, and they don't feel natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 I just find men's clothes fit me, and feel psychically comfortable on me. No idea why. Maybe because people design male clothes to fit males?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Exactly. If there are no gender roles and people should accept themselves for who they are, then there is less need to change gender identity.This is my core point. I don't see why people should be encouraged to reject their biological body or (worse) hack it up to achieve some fantasy they created in their mind. I probably went to far on the dress issue because there are utilitarian dresses but I don't think I am wrong to point out that that objective of a evening dress is to attract the attention of others and men who wear them are doing entirely because they care about how others perceive them. Edited March 28, 2014 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 ... men who wear them are doing entirely because they care about how others perceive them. Subjective. I think BD talked about how people are encouraged to feel comfortable with themselves, whether it's body size, race or gender. I also feel that the values there are logically consistent. It's based on individual freedom. People should be free to define themselves, and IMO it's just good Christian manners for others to accept someone's identity to the point where it conflicts with reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Exactly. If there are no gender roles and people should accept themselves for who they are, then there is less need to change gender identity. Actually, logically, if there are no gender roles, people should be free to identify as whatever gender they want and not have their choices circumscribed by biology. This is my core point. I don't see why people should be encouraged to reject their biological body or (worse) hack it up to achieve some fantasy they created in their mind. Gee and you wonder why people think you're transphobic. I probably went to far on the dress issue because there are utilitarian dresses but I don't think I am wrong to point out that that objective of a evening dress is to attract the attention of others and men who wear them are doing entirely because they care about how others perceive them. A guy wearing a tux is doing the same thing. Edited March 28, 2014 by Black Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Actually, logically, if there are no gender roles, people should be free to identify as whatever gender they want and not have their choices circumscribed by biology. I explained this earlier in depth (see my first post). If there are no gender roles then gender identity becomes somewhat meaningless beyond biology. A girl that likes sports or lego should not be considered 'a female that identifies as male' but 'a female that likes sports & lego'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) I think BD talked about how people are encouraged to feel comfortable with themselves, whether it's body size, race or gender.People should accept who they are. That starts by accepting ones biological sex. It is logically incoherent to tell people that they should accept your physical body for what it is except if your gender identity is screwed up then it is OK to reject your physical body. I also feel that the values there are logically consistent. It's based on individual freedom.People should be free to do drugs, get tattoos, self mutilate, cross dress or whatever. I have never said people should not be free to make choices. The question is whether certain behaviors should be judged to be a sign of underlying psychological problems. Edited March 28, 2014 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 People should accept who they are. That starts by accepting ones biological sex. It is logically incoherent to tell people that they should accept your physical body for what it is except if your gender identity is screwed up then it is OK to reject your physical body. This could be phrased another way and many gay and/or transgender people would agree with me: " Accept your gender identity for what it is. It's your biological sex that is screwed up".. This has just as much validity as your statement above. Ask any transgender person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) This could be phrased another way and many gay and/or transgender people would agree with me:Addicts can be wonderfully logical if asked to rationalize their addiction so the fact that transgender seek to rationalize their actions is not evidence that the rationalization has merit. In this case, gender is in the mind - biology is real. Claiming that a desire for gender trumps biological realities is nonsensical. Edited March 29, 2014 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 In this case, gender is in the mind - biology is real. Claiming that a desire for gender trumps biological realities is nonsensical. Are you still practicing Doctor ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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