jacee Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 In the overwhelming majority of cases, one can tell the difference between someone who is biologically male or female without any "genital inspection". One can look at their face, their proportions, their voice, etc. Yes there is the very rare ambiguous case, but that doesn't invalidate the reality that one can easily tell a male from a female the vast vast majority of the time.Why would you need to?Why wouldn't you just respect the gender they portray themselves as? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) Why would you need to? Why wouldn't you just respect the gender they portray themselves as? . The gender they portray themselves as is the biological sex that it is physically apparent that they have. If someone has the face, voice, and proportions of a woman, then they are portraying themselves as a woman, whether they wear men's or women's clothing. Edited June 23, 2014 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 We've establish that more or less, gender is a socially created construct. Sex is not, I'm highlighting things are unique to people with the sex of a woman. They're silly. -> A heterosexual male wouldn't be attracted to someone who presents their gender as male. -> Someone with male genitals would not see gynaecologist. -> I would need more information on your hypothetical workplace. It doesn't make sense to me at all. You need to learn how to distinguish between sex, gender identity, gender expression, and sexuality. Once you do that then you can begin to think about how those things may relate to each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 The gender they portray themselves as is the biological sex that it is physically apparent that they have. If someone has the face, voice, and proportions of a woman, then they are portraying themselves as a woman, whether they wear men's or women's clothing.Are you serious? A person dressed as a female ... you'd address as "he" if you 'thought' she had male characteristics? Really?! . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) Are you serious? A person dressed as a female ... you'd address as "he" if you 'thought' she had male characteristics? Really?! No, I'd address him as he if I thought he was a male, obviously. If tomorrow I dressed up in "female clothing" (whatever that is) because I felt like it, I would not expect people to start referring to me as "she". In my opinion, people of either gender are free to wear whatever clothing they want, and can still be referred to by the gender of themselves, not of the social stereotype of the gender of their clothing. Edited June 23, 2014 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) In fact, it's quite funny how Tim says they have a problem accepting their body for what it is. It's people like Tim who have a problem accepting their body.I am not the one injecting hormones and chopping off bits of my body which I don't like. You need to stop pretending that transgender-ism is not inextricably linked with sex changes. Without sex changes we are talking about cross dressing which is just a wardrobe choice and it is no big deal for me as long as it is appropriate for the occasion (meaning places which have dress codes can require that the clothing match the biological sex). Transgender people that seek sex changes are rejecting the body they have and those are the people I am talking about. The stories in the media about 'transgender' kids all say that they will "consider" sex changes when they get older and may be taking hormones to delay puberty to make that decision easier. Promoting self mutilation to kids is wrong. Enabling it with hormones is child abuse. Edited June 23, 2014 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 No, I'd address him as he if I thought he was a male, obviously. Why?Why not just respect a person's choice of gender identity without inspecting them for evidence of another gender, passing judgement and addressing them in a way they don't appreciate? Why make it your business to judge them? . If tomorrow I dressed up in "female clothing" (whatever that is) because I felt like it, I would not expect people to start referring to me as "she".Why not?Some would, of course. Most people you meet casually will address you as the gender you portray. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) I am not the one injecting hormones and chopping off bits of my body which I don't like. You need to stop pretending that transgender-ism is not inextricably linked with sex changes. Without sex changes we are talking about cross dressing which is just a wardrobe choice and it is no big deal for me as long as it is appropriate for the occasion (meaning places which have dress codes can require that the clothing match the biological sex).Never heard of such a dress code.How could they possibly know? . Edited June 23, 2014 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) Why? Why not just respect a person's choice of gender identity without inspecting them for evidence of another gender, passing judgement and addressing them in a way they don't appreciate? Why make it your business to judge them? There is no "inspection". If you see a male you see a male, if you see a female you see a female. It is not the clothing that makes the gender. Women dress in "men's clothing" in professional settings all the time and yet are not mistaken for men, nor should they be. In fact the whole notion of gender specific clothing is discriminatory, as any individual should be allowed to wear whatever clothing they want without being judged. Edited June 23, 2014 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 There is no "inspection". If you see a male you see a male, if you see a female you see a female. It is not the clothing that makes the gender. Women dress in "men's clothing" in professional settings all the time and yet are not mistaken for men, nor should they be. In fact the whole notion of gender specific clothing is discriminatory, as any individual should be allowed to wear whatever clothing they want without being judged.True ... and to be addressed as the gender they portray themselves as ... correct?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 True ... and to be addressed as the gender they portray themselves as ... correct? . Of course. If someone appears to be male then they should be addressed as male, and the same for females. However, clothing plays little if any part in this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Gender dysphoria is a real thing. Racial dysphoria is, AFAIK, not. So why would I concern myself with something that doesn't actually exist? Here is a video of a person who thinks he is a white man trapped in a black man's body: Racial dysphoria does exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 I am not the one injecting hormones and chopping off bits of my body which I don't like. You need to stop pretending that transgender-ism is not inextricably linked with sex changes. Without sex changes we are talking about cross dressing which is just a wardrobe choice and it is no big deal for me as long as it is appropriate for the occasion (meaning places which have dress codes can require that the clothing match the biological sex). Transgender people that seek sex changes are rejecting the body they have and those are the people I am talking about. The stories in the media about 'transgender' kids all say that they will "consider" sex changes when they get older and may be taking hormones to delay puberty to make that decision easier. Promoting self mutilation to kids is wrong. Enabling it with hormones is child abuse. So it really isn't about the children at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 So it really isn't about the children at all. It's complete thread drift. I feel bad for getting caught up in it. What adults do with their body is their business and I mentioned that in the OP. Initially I was discussing a parent who didn't what her child to be classified by any gender and later a School Board that essentially wants teacher to refer to children by some mysterious third gender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Here is a video of a person who thinks he is a white man trapped in a black man's body: Racial dysphoria does exist. Yeah, I'd like to see a better reference than Tyra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Yeah, I'd like to see a better reference than Tyra. You sir are being racist AND misogynist! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 You guys know that these people aren't going around and choosing their gender on a whim, right? It's not like you decided you were going to be male one day. It's certainly the same with transgendered people. They didn't decide they were going to be the opposite gender of their biological sex. That's how they've always seen themselves; it is who they are as a person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 You guys know that these people aren't going around and choosing their gender on a whim, right? It's not like you decided you were going to be male one day. It's certainly the same with transgendered people. They didn't decide they were going to be the opposite gender of their biological sex. That's how they've always seen themselves; it is who they are as a person. "Always" seen themselves? At what age does someone understand the idea of gender and is able to see themselves in a certain way other than what they've been told they are by their parents/teachers/siblings? You also never answered my earlier question, regarding what you meant by "living life as a female" and how it varied from "living life as a male". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 I didn't answer your questions because they're obviously rhetorical and designed to back up your unwillingness to understand transgendered people. I mean seriously, do you need me to tell you what male gender expression is versus female gender expression? Do you really have a tough time understanding that? Do you really need me to tell you when boys know they're boys and girls know they're girls? Is it so far fetched that someone biologically male would then identify as a girl from a very young age or vice versa? Obviously it happens when people are young, as you can see from the OP and other similar cases. It's fine to be confused about gender issues and transgendered people, but it gets pretty tiring the total lack of respect shown here. The willful ignorance and the insistence that transgendered people are broken, mentally ill, or some kind of freaks is just really tiresome and totally classless. I get sick of humouring these stupid discussions trying to educate people on the issues when they have absolutely no honest interest in being informed or learning about others or having compassion for people. Folks just want a soap box to turn up their nose at others and continue to disrespect them because they don't understand it and don't care to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) If you get so sick of "humouring these stupid discussions" then why are you posting in this thread at all? And yes, if you are trying to impose some kind of odd definitions of what it means to be male or female or to express oneself as such, or as jacee says what it means to "portray" yourself as male or female, then you should indeed be willing to be precise with your definitions, and to explain them when asked. And yes, boys know they are boys from a young age cause everyone tells them they are a boy (same with girls). But at what age is someone in a male body likely to start being able to think that contrary to what everyone has told them they're whole life, they don't actually feel like a boy but are actually a girl? I don't think this happens at an age of 2-4 when other children learn their "gender identities", but much later. If you disagree, care to show some research regarding this? By research I mean actual scientific research, using the scientific method properly. As for lack of respect, that is more exhibited by people like Black Dog when they characterize the arguments of people they disagree with as "bleating" or yourself filling your posts with condescension on topics such as this. Edited June 23, 2014 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 I'm only condescending on such topics because that's exactly how this always goes when talking about transgendered people's experiences. It's really not that difficult to understand, but the way some people discuss these things you would think they're actively trying not to understand. You've been around long enough to have seen me explain gender expression, gender identity, and sex before. Yet here we are, going over the same crap again. You're asking me to prove to you that there are transgendered children in a thread about a transgendered child. I'm sorry if that gets me all stabby and condescending, but come on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 I'm only condescending on such topics because that's exactly how this always goes when talking about transgendered people's experiences. It's really not that difficult to understand, but the way some people discuss these things you would think they're actively trying not to understand. You've been around long enough to have seen me explain gender expression, gender identity, and sex before. Yet here we are, going over the same crap again. You're asking me to prove to you that there are transgendered children in a thread about a transgendered child. I'm sorry if that gets me all stabby and condescending, but come on. Yes I've seen you present various information in such threads before. Without going into a discussion of the validity/applicability/scientific basis of said information, I'm still unsure why you participate in this thread now if you find it so tiresome. There are certain topics I find tiresome and simply don't look at / post much in anymore. As for this thread being about a "transgendered child"... TimG's valid question remains unanswered. Are these things coming from the children themselves or really from parents with an agenda? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Psychologists recognize that children can be transgendered. I'm not sure what else you need to know about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 You seem to be implying the "challenge" is caused by others that don't accept the gender confusion as normal. No. Challenge and problem are synonymous. she should be free to make her choices Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 And where was that? I try to assume questions are asked in good faith if I'm not 100% sure they're not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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