Is Gender Irrelevant?

[Black Dog]

People should accept who they are. That starts by accepting ones biological sex.

And why should they, exactly?

It is logically incoherent to tell people that they should accept your physical body for what it is except if your gender identity is screwed up then it is OK to reject your physical body.

Actually it's totally logical if your starting point is that biology is not the be-all and end-all of gender identity. You'd disagree, obviously, but the thousands of people who go through this stuff would have a different take and frankly they matter more than you on this issue.

People should be free to do drugs, get tattoos, self mutilate, cross dress or whatever. I have never said people should not be free to make choices. The question is whether certain behaviors should be judged to be a sign of underlying psychological problems.

To what end?

[cybercoma]

People should accept who they are. That starts by accepting ones biological sex.

Except your idea of them accepting their "biological sex" has nothing to do with biology at all. You want them to behave and socialize according to the rules and norms that society imposes upon people based on their gender expression. You immediately leap from biology to sociology, as soon as you begin imposing behaviours and ways of expressing oneself on a person. That has nothing to do with what chromosomes someone has floating around in their body. Many trans people do accept who they are. The problem is people like you that refuse to accept their gender expressions because you want "who they are," in other words they way they behave, to strictly conform to your idea of the way particular sexes are supposed to behave. That has nothing to do with biology. That has to do with you telling people how to live and imposing roles on people that they're not comfortable taking.

[WestCoastRunner]

Except your idea of them accepting their "biological sex" has nothing to do with biology at all. You want them to behave and socialize according to the rules and norms that society imposes upon people based on their gender expression. . Many trans people do accept who they are. The problem people like you that refuse to accept their gender expressions because you want "who they are," in other words they way they behave, to strictly conform to your idea of the way particular sexes are supposed to behave. That has nothing to do with biology. That has to do with you telling people how to live and imposing roles on people that they're not comfortable taking.

Amen, I couldn't have explained it more succinctly. Thank you Cybecoma. Although I do believe that Tim is just misinformed and has not been around folks who have gender issues?

[WestCoastRunner]

Addicts can be wonderfully logical if asked to rationalize their addiction so the fact that transgender seek to rationalize their actions is not evidence that the rationalization has merit.

In this case, gender is in the mind - biology is real. Claiming that a desire for gender trumps biological realities is nonsensical.

I am scratching my head over this one. I'm not sure how you can compare addicts to transgenders/gays. There are prisons that actually believe that sex operation gender changes is a life or death matter.

[iolo]

On the 'showering together' point, this was, I believe, quite normal in the Zionist kibbutzim in Palestine - they were all to exhausted to be bothered about sex, let alone gender. On RAF squarebashing, similarly exhausted, we used to believe they were putting something in our tea.

[bleeding heart]

I see that an interesting thread about gender identity has morphed--predictably--into ruminations on whether transgender people are simply mentally ill--and can be likened to addicts. (A nonsensical analogy, even by its own--very low--standards.)

There is also an undercurrent of sanctimony about this...see, maybe transgender folk are doing something morally wrong. At least ignorant of what's best for themselves....which is to be proposed to them by those who, interestingly, know nothing of the subject and who have never spent a single hour even thinking about it.

A familiar refrain, as we've seen, most recently over matters of homosexuality. (The bigots and the ignorant are losing on that score, it appears....all the better. As they continue to lose, so too will they shed much of their bigotry or their ignorance, whichever the case may be.)

Transgender issues are becoming more acceptable in mainstream society because we are having, as it was once quaintly but perhaps sometimes accurately put, a "raising of consciousness." It is a measure of our becoming, in certain realms of social life, more cognizant, and more civilized.

[TimG]

I see that an interesting thread about gender identity has morphed--predictably--into ruminations on whether transgender people are simply mentally ill--and can be likened to addicts. (A nonsensical analogy, even by its own--very low--standards.)

Why? If you listen to any high functioning addict they will regale you excuses about why they don't have a problem and about how their life is under control. Yet most people agree that addicts have unresolved issues that they are using substances to avoid - even if their life seems to currently be in order. Some cultures also normalize addiction and simply accept the behavior of the addict as normal but that fact that some cultures normalize it does not mean it is any less a mental health issue. You could argue the "live and let live" when it comes to addicts - i.e. if they are not harming themselves or others then what they do is no one else's concern. But at the same time no one argues that is wrong to claim that addicts have "issues".

Why the resistance to looking at gender confusion as a mental health issue? Especially mental health professionals have no problems calling it a "disorder":

Gender identity disorder is classified as a medical disorder by the ICD-10 CM[6] and DSM-5 (called gender dysphoria).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

The only thing that changed in DSM-5 is the mental disorder refers to the discontent experienced as a result of gender identity issues as opposed to the pathologizing the belief that one is a different gender. A definition which, BTW, meshes perfectly with what I have been saying: if someone cannot come to terms with the biological sex they have then they have mental health issues.

Seems to me it is nothing but political correctness run a-muck.

Edited April 1, 2014 by TimG

[cybercoma]

if someone cannot come to terms with the biological sex they have then they have mental health issues.

Seems to me it is nothing but political correctness run a-muck.

Sorry, but this is absolutely and completely wrong. Folks who are transgendered are not considered mentally ill. The problems they face due to social exclusion and isolation create severe depression and anxiety and other mental health issues. Being transgendered itself is, however, not considered an illness.

[TimG]

Sorry, but this is absolutely and completely wrong.

No it is not. "Not being able to come to terms with their biologic sex" does not imply that they must believe that their "gender" matches their biological sex. What it means is they accept their biological sex as a fact of life.

I am frankly amazed that people are willing to argue that mutilating a healthy body because of 'gender identity' issues is a normal behavior. It just goes to show that logic is not necessary when it comes to protecting the PC religion.

Edited April 1, 2014 by TimG

[Boges]

If we've established that Sex and Gender are different, then sex-change operations shouldn't be needed as gender is supposed to be fluid. We do see this in mainstream society. The whole metrosexual phase and the idea that girls can be "Tom Girls" liking things that guys do and dress as guys. Neither of these things are usually socially frowned upon.

Someone who wants to be transgender isn't facing an issue with their gender, they want to be a completely different sex.

[cybercoma]

You two seem to think this is just some decision that's made willy-nilly. Like, "oh hey, maybe I'll be a woman for awhile. Hope I don't change my mind later. heheheehe." This is a serious life decision. One that transgendered people typically struggle with their entire life. They feel like their body is alien to them because they feel like they are the opposite sex and cannot live that way. Well the fact is they can live that way with hormone treatments and in some cases, not all and frankly it's nobody else's business anyway, surgery. What I can't understand is you two deciding that they shouldn't have surgery for no other reason than your own ridiculous personal hangups. You have absolutely no empathy for transgendered people and haven't for a moment considered what it's like to live as one. Yet, you'll sit here and argue to deny them a fundamental treatment so they can live happy lives.

Thankfully, our government doesn't make laws that agree with you and our healthcare systems don't treat patients in a way that agrees with you.

[TimG]

This is a serious life decision. One that transgendered people typically struggle with their entire life. They feel like their body is alien to them because they feel like they are the opposite sex and cannot live that way.

IOW - it is a mental illness and we are only debating the proper treatment of said illness. Some people think addicts are best helped by teaching them to consume in moderation. Others think abstinence is the best treatment. All agree that there is an underlying pathology that needs treatment.

The issue here is your insistence that there is no pathology or mental illness. You want people to treat sex changes like going to the hairdresser but then you completely contradict yourself with your own arguments.

People can feel that their gender does not match their biological sex and there is no mental health issue. It only becomes a mental health issue when people are not able to accept the mismatch and seek external "fixes" like surgery. Why is this so difficult to understand?

[eyeball]

Presumably these guys are prescribing treatment but lets say the government were to also view the transgendered as mentally ill and spend our tax dollars treating them as such. That's when it would become a sin that needs punishing.

[cybercoma]

You want people to treat sex changes like going to the hairdresser

This is why I don't discuss things with you because you're completely incapable of understanding others' positions. What part of, "This is a serious life decision. One that transgendered people typically struggle with their entire life," and "The problems they face due to social exclusion and isolation create severe depression and anxiety and other mental health issues," would lead you to summarize that I think this is just like going to the hairdresser?

Get back to me when you're ready to have an intelligent discussion.

[TimG]

would lead you to summarize that I think this is just like going to the hairdresser?

Every part where you reject my claim that not being able to reconcile ones biological sex with ones gender is a mental health issue (note: "not being able to reconcile" does not imply "must believe they are the same" - it means accepting biological reality). Why don't you re-read my last post before responding. Particularly the part where I point how your how you contradict your own arguments.

Your problem is don't take the time to read the arguments presented. You simply assume that anyone who disagrees with you must hold what ever stereotypical opinion that you have in your head and you attempt to refute the stereotypical argument instead of the argument actually presented.

Edited April 1, 2014 by TimG

[cybercoma]

You've done nothing but state your opinion that it's a mental health issue, when it's not. There is no psychologist worth their weight that accepts that claim. You keep saying it, but it's completely wrong.

[Michael Hardner]

There is no psychologist worth their weight that accepts that claim.

Let's add psychologist to the list of professional occupations that people think they can comment upon, with authority. Some others being: sociology, business/project management... educator... add yours to the list.

[cybercoma]

Ah, right. The democratization of knowledge again. Extreme skepticism about professionals and experts, but we're supposed to take the lay person's opinion seriously.

[Michael Hardner]

... we're supposed to take the lay person's opinion seriously.

Well, I sure don't. As one of the professionals that is defacto de-legitimized with these types of comments (and married to another one), it irks me to no end.

Furthermore, there are some professions that pay well - but don't demand intelligence or wisdom - that people seem to imbue with trust.... for some reason. Maybe it's because their type appears on those little "expert" boxes above the anchor's head during Cable News roundtable discussions.

[Michael Hardner]

Oops... thread drift... I'm turning myself in.

[TimG]

You've done nothing but state your opinion that it's a mental health issue, when it's not. There is no psychologist worth their weight that accepts that claim. You keep saying it, but it's completely wrong.

Now you are just making crap up. I provided a link earlier which you refused to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

Gender identity disorder is classified as a medical disorder by the ICD-10 CM[6] and DSM-5 (called gender dysphoria).[7] Many transgender people and researchers support declassification of GID because they say the diagnosis pathologizes gender variance, reinforces the binary model of gender,[8] and can also result in stigmatization of transgender individuals.[7] The official classification of gender dysphoria as a disorder in the DSM-5 may help resolve some of these issues because gender dysphoria only pathologizes the discontent experienced as a result of gender identity issues.[7]

Edited April 1, 2014 by TimG

[TimG]

Let's add psychologist to the list of professional occupations that people think they can comment upon, with authority. Some others being: sociology, business/project management... educator... add yours to the list.

I suggest you do some reading before your simply accept whatever nonsense politically correct activists try to peddle. I provided the wiki link describing what the DSM5 says. Now please explain how my carefully worded statements are in any way inconsistent with the DSM5 definition or acknowledge that you are making claims about what experts think without learning what experts actually think. Edited April 1, 2014 by TimG

[eyeball]

An appeal to authority, I'll be damned.

[Michael Hardner]

I suggest you do some reading before your simply accept whatever nonsense politically correct activists try to peddle. I provided the wiki link describing what the DSM5 says. Now please explain how my carefully worded statements are in any way inconsistent with the DSM5 definition or acknowledge that you are making claims about what experts think without learning what experts actually think.

Explain ? Easy. I was wrong. I still think my list of professions lacking authority with "the" public is valid.

[TimG]

Explain ? Easy. I was wrong.

Thx.

I still think my list of professions lacking authority with "the" public is valid.

But many non-professionals deal with family members with mental illnesses and often develop insights which can be as relevant to a discussion as a professional. Also, as with the climate debate, there are activists who willfully misrepresent the opinion of professionals to support their political agenda. This is what is happening with cybercoma and his constant insistence that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness/disorder despite the clear statement in the DSM5. Edited April 1, 2014 by TimG