Police 'carding'

[jacee]

Recording is no protection at all unless you have a hidden recording device. They can easily confiscate a phone/camera if they feel like it.

Not so easily any more. People know it's illegal now.

They need a warrant for your pictures if they need them for evidence in a crime. Otherwise,

they can't touch your camera.

.privacylawyer.ca/2012/08/photographing-and-filming-police

There is no law in Canada that prevents a member of the public from taking photographs or video of a police officer executing his or her duties in public or in a location lawfully controlled by the photographer (in fact, police officers have no privacy rights in public when executing their duties);

Preventing a person from taking photos or video is a prima facie infringement of a person's Charter rights;

You cannot interfere with a police officer's lawful execution of his or her duties, but taking photos or videos does not, in and of itself, constitute interference;

A police officer cannot take your phone or camera simply for recording him or her, as long as you were not obstructing;

These privileges are not reserved to media -- everyone has these rights;

A police officer cannot make you unlock your phone to show him or her your images; and

A police officer cannot make you delete any photos.

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Police did a lot of illegal confiscating at the G20, leading to clarification and educating the public.

Edited December 30, 2013 by jacee

[PIK]

The people training these new officers need to be canned. These new cops are rude arrogant and if you don't wear a uniform you are dirt.

[jacee]

The people training these new officers need to be canned. These new cops are rude arrogant and if you don't wear a uniform you are dirt.

True.

They treat everyone like criminals.

Sometimes it helps to remind them you're a taxpayer who pays their salaries.

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[PIK]

Christmas eve on my way home from work with a unopened case of beer in the truck cab and this young female cop went berserk over it and said she can charge me for open beer and she is going on and on about it. ( her not knowing I know I was in the right) so I told her (and not nicely either) charge me and I will see you in court and you can explain to the judge why you don't have a clue what the law is. I thought she was going to blow a fuse, but she said merry christmas and walked away. lol

[PIK]

No, they get really nasty then and threaten you with bogus charges. If you are a teen or person of colour, they might beat you up.

Where I live ,if you are mid aged male driving a pick up, they tend to pick on them, looking for DUI's.

[Moonlight Graham]

Recording is no protection at all unless you have a hidden recording device. They can easily confiscate a phone/camera if they feel like it.

It's illegal to confiscate it without proper, lawful reasoning. Nobody can just take your private property at a whim. Police can't take your camera unless they have reasonable grounds to believe that it's stolen, that it's been/being used to break the law, or it is evidence for a crime. Look on Youtube, there's tons of videos of people getting stopped or questioned by police and these people have their recorders filming everything and the police can't do anything about it but look annoyed. It's your right to record police while on duty.

From Section 489 of the Canadian Criminal Code:

Seizure without warrant

(2) Every peace officer, and every public officer who has been appointed or designated to administer or enforce any federal or provincial law and whose duties include the enforcement of this or any other Act of Parliament, who is lawfully present in a place pursuant to a warrant or otherwise in the execution of duties may, without a warrant, seize any thing that the officer believes on reasonable grounds

• (a) has been obtained by the commission of an offence against this or any other Act of Parliament;

• (b) has been used in the commission of an offence against this or any other Act of Parliament; or

• (c) will afford evidence in respect of an offence against this or any other Act of Parliament.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Moonlight Graham

[cybercoma]

Also, the recordings themselves are your property separate from the recording device. They cannot demand that you destroy your property, i.e., delete photos/videos/audio, without a valid reason.

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, there you go. Armed with all of this expert legal advice, feel free to go out and shove your camera/cell phone into the mix and be sure to remind the attending police of your Charter Rights. Don't be discouraged by the possible mace in your face or tazer in your ass....you have rights...dammit !

[jacee]

Well, there you go. Armed with all of this expert legal advice, feel free to go out and shove your camera/cell phone into the mix and be sure to remind the attending police of your Charter Rights. Don't be discouraged by the possible mace in your face or tazer in your ass....you have rights...dammit !

Not your call. You're out of line, trolling here.

/yes-you-can-photograph-or-video-police

An officer who conducts himself reasonably has nothing to fear from an audio, video or photographic record of his interaction with the public. The public has a right to use means at their disposal to record their interactions with the police, something that many police services themselves do through in-car cameras and similar technology. The officers powers exist to allow him to protect the public and himself and to enforce the law; they do not extend to controlling the public record of what happened. The maintenance of that public record plays a significant role in the maintenance of the rule of law.

...

Interference by a police officer in the publics exercise of that right is a significant abuse of authority.

I like that.

.

Edited December 30, 2013 by jacee

[bush_cheney2004]

Not your call. You're out of line, trolling here.

Nonsense.....and quite ironic that you would try to silence another MLW member.

[Wilber]

I'm wondering WTF all these people are doing that makes them so pissed at the police. Over 90% of people have no interaction with them at all unless they become a victim of a crime or get a traffic ticket.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm wondering WTF all these people are doing that makes them so pissed at the police. Over 90% of people have no interaction with them at all unless they become a victim of a crime or get a traffic ticket.

Agreed...why do these camera happy super heroes have or want so many interactions with police officers. Maybe it's another manifestation of the YouTube generation.

[jacee]

I'm wondering WTF all these people are doing that makes them so pissed at the police. Over 90% of people have no interaction with them at all unless they become a victim of a crime or get a traffic ticket.

The teenagers in the OP were walking home.

"Carding" is about cops recording names of as many youth of colour as possible ... for no good reason.

[Bob Macadoo]

I'm wondering WTF all these people are doing that makes them so pissed at the police. Over 90% of people have no interaction with them at all unless they become a victim of a crime or get a traffic ticket.

Yes but that 10% are concentrated in areas that are "policed" heavily, hence the "interaction".

[Guest Derek L]

Yes but that 10% are concentrated in areas that are "policed" heavily, hence the "interaction".

Why would these areas be "policed heavily"?

[Wilber]

Why would these areas be "policed heavily"?

You beat me to it.

[Moonlight Graham]

I'm wondering WTF all these people are doing that makes them so pissed at the police. Over 90% of people have no interaction with them at all unless they become a victim of a crime or get a traffic ticket.

They're doing nothing. That's the point. Don't card me bro.

[On Guard for Thee]

They may change their mind, or they may beat you up. Worth the risk?

Or shoot you to death if you happen to be on a TTC streetcar.

Not worth the risk, I guess.

[Rue]

From what I can see on the video only without hearing the words, on the video with silence alone, there would be for me and probably most lawyers no grounds to have detained or initiated an arrest.

I am saying that as a lawyer who served as a crown attorney years and years ago or purely as a lawyer.

Now let's talk the reality of the streets as opposed to the law in theory.

In theory, under the Charter of Rights you have the right to walk freely. You can not be arbitrarily stopped and searched unless the police officer has reasonable grounds to suspect you are engaged in the commission of an offence.

So that point Jacee initiated is legally correct and as a defence lawyer looking at the above, I would argue the above should be thrown out as there did not appear to be reasonable grounds to suspect anyone was engaged in the commission of an offence.

The criminal code states the same thing as a precondition to stopping and searching someone, and stop and search includes asking for i.d.

O.k. so I can give you a seminar and tell you that, but I agree with Bob Mc on this one. Then what?

You are a young man, and you don't trust or like authority to start with-now with this knowledge you refuse to provide an i.d...

well the practical reality is you will bring about a shake down.

Learning about the law and for that matter teaching the law, and that is what I do, is more than just telling you, your rights. It is about also teaching you common sense rules and behavioural techniques to defuse a conflict.

You criticize the police for acting arbitrarily and unduly adversarial by stopping these young men. Yes. How about these young men though? Can or could they have done something to defuse matters as well? Do we stop at the I KNOW MY RIGHTS LEAVE ME ALONE response?

No. That will not do it. In addition to teaching these young men about the above I would have gone on to teach that:

1-whether you like it or not, as a visible minority youth out at night you are going to be stopped-understand that-stop moaning about it-its reality-its reality because the police stopping you have no idea of knowing if you are different from the gangs in the same neighbourhood terrorizing people;

2-pretending their are no gangs or you may not have been or are a member of one is pointless;

3-I repeat 2, save the I am innocent liberal guilt shtick for someone else-I deal with reality and that reality is people blame all young black men for crime and think they are all gang members-sure its wrong-but it is what it is and it aint no different than how the public assumes all cops are bad because some are assholes-its the exact same thing-you don't want me to make sweeping negative general stereotypes about young black men, I hear you, but don't make sweeping negative general stereotypes about all cops either-both are wrong-both cause this bullshit we now talk about;

4-so how do we deal with this-we need to confront the stereotypes directly-how do you do that?-talk to the police exactly the way you want them to talk to you, behave to the police exactly how you want them to behave to you-yah that is it...

5-so what does that mean?...it means stop buying into fear of cops...stop showing them you are afraid of them through defiance and anger and acting

tough...don't play into that stereotype....rise above it...when they ask for id, show it-if they ask you what you are up to tell them....don't hide...don't shrink..don't get all itchy and passive aggressive, just be...be in the moment.....be who you are....just show them you have an id, you are cool... but understand....they are stopping you on purpose...its the game...it is not an attack on you personally...you are the indirect object society is asking to be shaked down by the police to make them feel more secure....bust the stereotype...bust it by not fueling the stereotype....smile...be cooperative...ask the cop what his name is...shake his hand....don't take any bait thrown your way....cops are no different than you....they play into their stereotype of

being fascist bullies because they have grown used to expecting defiance---no defiance...there is no fuel that flames their nehative behaviour...want to get a cop to back down....stay calm and smile.....

So you say the above is a crock. Its not. We send visible minority kids of all kinds dressed up out onto the streets to interact with cops and it works.

Oh sure sometimes it doesn't but you would be surprised how it works.

Now me....do I know bad cops. Of course. Do I know bad black men. Of course. Do I know bad people period, of course.

All I am saying to young people like Jacee or young black men who are right and should not expect to be shaken down-sure its unfair--sure its not right...you are damn right....but reality is what it is and the reality is you defy a cop and they use their power against you.

Remember that Aesop's story about the Sun and the Wind? The wind claims it will get the person's coat off by blowing it off. all the blowing did was make the person hold on to the coat even tighter. The sun got the person to take off their coat by simply shining down with warmth.

I know it sounds quaint and ridiculous, but it does work. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Call it tikam olem, the Golden Rule, what-ever but it is a basic lesson on how to defuse conflict and it works.

Simply stating you ground no matter how righteous it may be, won't work all it does is alienate and cause the other side to go on the defensive by being offensive.

[PIK]

I'm not so sure about that one jacee?

I do not believe that driving is a right (however a good argument can be made that it is since earning a living is a right and driving can be a part of that) .

However, I believe the police can not randomly search your vehicle or your person. Or ask people who are passengers for their ID.

Pulling you over to make sure you have a license and insurance sounds reasonable within their job in protecting the roads, freeways, etc.

WWWTT

All they have to say is that you were weaving and then when pulled over they say they can smell weed. I have no problem with the law, just the cops that like to push the envelope, and treat everyone like dirt.

[jacee]

From what I can see on the video only without hearing the words, on the video with silence alone, there would be for me and probably most lawyers no grounds to have detained or initiated an arrest.

That's right. The bogus charges were dropped.

I am saying that as a lawyer who served as a crown attorney years and years ago or purely as a lawyer.

Now let's talk the reality of the streets as opposed to the law in theory.

In theory, under the Charter of Rights you have the right to walk freely. You can not be arbitrarily stopped and searched unless the police officer has reasonable grounds to suspect you are engaged in the commission of an offence.

So that point Jacee initiated is legally correct and as a defence lawyer looking at the above, I would argue the above should be thrown out as there did not appear to be reasonable grounds to suspect anyone was engaged in the commission of an offence.

The criminal code states the same thing as a precondition to stopping and searching someone, and stop and search includes asking for i.d.

O.k. so I can give you a seminar and tell you that, but I agree with Bob Mc on this one. Then what?

You are a young man, and you don't trust or like authority to start with-now with this knowledge you refuse to provide an i.d...

well the practical reality is you will bring about a shake down.

That's illegal and must stop.

Learning about the law and for that matter teaching the law, and that is what I do, is more than just telling you, your rights. It is about also teaching you common sense rules and behavioural techniques to defuse a conflict.

Tell the cops that.

These are hormonized teens. The cops are supposed to be the mature adults.

1-whether you like it or not, as a visible minority youth out at night you are going to be stopped-understand that-stop moaning about it-its reality-its reality ...

It's wrong and must stop.They have no valid reason to stop them or demand id.

5-so what does that mean?...it means stop buying into fear of cops...stop showing them you are afraid of them through defiance and anger and acting

tough...don't play into that stereotype....rise above it...when they ask for id, show it

No. You don't have to and once they 'card' you, that's a permanent record and may be used to harass you. That's why people are demanding that carding stop.

...want to get a cop to back down....stay calm and smile.....

... and say "no".

All I am saying to young people like Jacee

That's me! Young enough to be retired with grandchildren!

or young black men who are right and should not expect to be shaken down-sure its unfair--sure its not right...you are damn right....but reality is what it is and the reality is you defy a cop and they use their power against you.

That has to change, and review of carding is in process..

Simply stating you ground no matter how righteous it may be, won't work all it does is alienate and cause the other side to go on the defensive by being offensive.

Again, these are often teens and the onus is on cops to act in a legal and mature manner.

That's what we pay them for.

Edited January 2, 2014 by jacee

[overthere]

The criminal code states the same thing as a precondition to stopping and searching someone, and stop and search includes asking for i.d.

Cops just make shit up to get around this precondition.

"the car was weaving"

""a tail light was burned out"

"i saw the accused light a joint"

"the accused had something in his hand that looked like a weapon/burglary tool .... whatever".

[jacee]

Cops just make shit up to get around this precondition.

"the car was weaving"

""a tail light was burned out"

"i saw the accused light a joint"

"the accused had something in his hand that looked like a weapon/burglary tool .... whatever".

Too true ... so we have to keep bugging them with complaints, protests, lawsuits, petitions, etc so that cops, judges and law makers know that we SERIOUSLY will not tolerate violations of rights.

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[guyser]

Too true ... so we have to keep bugging them with complaints, protests, lawsuits, petitions, etc so that cops, judges and law makers know that we SERIOUSLY will not tolerate violations of rights.

.

It would be nice but as we can see it pretty much doesnt.

Witness the cop the other day on the stand, "yes, Ive done hundreds of strip searches" when in fact it is barred pending specific situations of which none of his were.

And yet....he still has a job. Shouldnt, but he does.

[bush_cheney2004]

And yet....he still has a job. Shouldnt, but he does.

Police officers have very strong unions and support compared to potential perps.