Police 'carding'

[GostHacked]

So you think it is OK for people to be driving around without licenses as long as they don't commit any crime.

I've accidentally left my wallet at home and drove without my license on me. Is that a jail-able offense, or should it simply be a ticket thing?

If that man was in fact driving illegally we do not know the outcome. But it's simply 'lets's check everyone one and see what we can dig up'. That is troubling in my view.

The justification for the stop was to see if he had a license.

Which seems to be illegal in most of the USA. DUI checks sure are legal, but simply stopping to ask for your papers? That is something different.

If you watch the video where the guy did produce his license, all the officer did was look at him, the picture and check the expiry date. If he happened to be a felon they were looking for and the officer recognized him. So much the better, or are you against police officers recognizing felons.

I am against unwarranted stop and seizures. If they are roadblocking because they are looking for a criminal, fine, but don't guise it as a license check and then claim otherwise. It develops a mistrust factor with the public. Notices how the officers scooted off then they were 'busted'. Cops always scoot off when they thing they are about to get into trouble. If I scooted off, I'd be tazed, piled on and beaten and then jailed.

He asked the right questions, 'am I being detained'? If the cop cannot definitively say yes and for a specific reason, then the person cannot be detained.

But this is part of that NDAA legislation which allows this kind of thing to take place by law enforcement. They can detain anyone for any reason they make up.

Aircraft, cars and trucks are all moving vehicles that can do a great deal of damage if operated by incompetent people. Operating a motor vehicle is not a right, it is a privilege and it is not even that if you don't have a valid license to operate one.

How does having your license on you prevent accidents? And I will take the MTO to task for giving so many idiots drivers licenses.

You first have to suspect me of a crime to ask for my license. If the only suspicion is that I may not have a license on me, then I really question the validity of these stops. What other reasons will they make up? Make sure you got your seat-belt on?

[Wilber]

The law says you must be in possesion of your license when operating a motor vehicle, boat or aircraft. I suppose you don't think people who are in the act of hunting or fishing should be asked for their hunting or fishing licenses either. Oh well.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Wilber

[GostHacked]

The law says you must be in possesion of your license when operating a motor vehicle, boat or aircraft. I suppose you don't think people who are in the act of hunting or fishing shouldn't be asked for their hunting or fishing licenses either. Oh well.

You ever forget your wallet by mistake?

[Wilber]

You ever forget your wallet by mistake?

Sure. So what?

[GostHacked]

Sure. So what?

And if you get pulled over what would you do?

[Wilber]

And if you get pulled over what would you do?

Accept the consequences of driving illegally, be polite to the officer and maybe get a break. Or you can cop an attitude and get crapped on. Your choice, it's called personal responsibility.

[GostHacked]

Accept the consequences of driving illegally, be polite to the officer and maybe get a break. Or you can cop an attitude and get crapped on. Your choice, it's called personal responsibility.

If there is no crime being committed, there us no justifiable reason to ask for the drivers license. If this is simply a check point to do just this, then it is not legal. You still have rights even if if it's simply a privilege to drive.

Even if the guy was in the wrong, was it legal for the cops to search his vehicle even after he said he did not consent to the search?

A lawyer in Toronto clears some of this up. IN Canada it seems you can be pulled over and have to show your ID, even if nothing is suspect.

I would not lie to the police if the police would stop lying to us. So just keep your mouth shut. But I have seen vids of people remaining calm, but the cop still pokes and prods and tries to provoke a response in order to apply arrest force on the individual.

[GostHacked]

Accept the consequences of driving illegally, be polite to the officer and maybe get a break. Or you can cop an attitude and get crapped on. Your choice, it's called personal responsibility.

Do you think it is an arrestable offense if you do not produce your ID?

[Wilber]

Do you think it is an arrestable offense if you do not produce your ID?

Driving without a license is a misdemeanor, just like speeding or running a stop sign. You wouldn't be arrested but don't be surprised if you find yourself walking and your vehicle being towed, particularly if you give an officer a hard time. If you can't produce proof that you are qualified to drive, you should not be driving and other people shouldn't have to share the road with you.

As far as searching you or your vehicle is concerned, I agree there should be cause, but not for simply asking to see your license, vehicle documents or proof of insurance. You must have all of those to legally drive and the police are doing society a service by making sure people have them.

[guyser]

If I am in the USA I have to play by their rules. I am not an American citizen and not granted the same rights as them.

Yes you have the same rights, if on American soil.

The same holds true up here as respects the Charter.

[guyser]

The issue for the last few pages is not the licence per se, but the stop to check for licences that apparently is illegal in Tenn,

In ONtario it isnt, the police can pull you over to check the documents. The bigger issue is that if it is illegal for them to do, then it needs to be treated as such and no co-operation should be given.

Tell the cops to pound sand frankly.

You can go along thinking the cops are on your side, but thats folly to do so. They have only one concern for the most part, and thats themselves. We see it when we ask them to help 'us' identify a rogue cop....."No idea who he is" <---G20

They have become a tool for revenue on their own watch. They themselves have become far more isolated than they need to be.

[Wilber]

The issue for the last few pages is not the licence per se, but the stop to check for licences that apparently is illegal in Tenn,

In ONtario it isnt, the police can pull you over to check the documents. The bigger issue is that if it is illegal for them to do, then it needs to be treated as such and no co-operation should be given.

Tell the cops to pound sand frankly.

You can go along thinking the cops are on your side, but thats folly to do so. They have only one concern for the most part, and thats themselves. We see it when we ask them to help 'us' identify a rogue cop....."No idea who he is" <---G20

They have become a tool for revenue on their own watch. They themselves have become far more isolated than they need to be.

Fill your boots, but don't whine when you get treated in kind. As far as cops being on your side goes, go ask for a ride along with your local police department. Do it on a busy Friday or Saturday night when the weather is good. Bet you won't, you might have to adjust some of your opinions.

[guyser]

Fill your boots, but don't whine when you get treated in kind.

Which way? Can I call my spouse using my handheld? Can I speed with immunity? How about I get a cop to cover me when driving drunk?

Or do You mean treating the laws they swore to uphold? Hey that would be great ! I will take that treatment any day.

As far as cops being on your side goes, go ask for a ride along with your local police department. Do it on a busy Friday or Saturday night when the weather is good. Bet you won't, you might have to adjust some of your opinions.

Or get them cemented.

Either way, I doubt I would change my opinion since it was the cops (collectively) themselves who have ruined their own reputation.

I know cops and alone I have no problem, collectively they have a huge PR problem. The internet has done them damage beyond their own comprehension.

[Wilber]

Knew you wouldn't. And I believe everything I see on the internet to.

[GostHacked]

Which way? Can I call my spouse using my handheld? Can I speed with immunity? How about I get a cop to cover me when driving drunk?

Or do You mean treating the laws they swore to uphold? Hey that would be great ! I will take that treatment any day.

Or get them cemented.

Either way, I doubt I would change my opinion since it was the cops (collectively) themselves who have ruined their own reputation.

I know cops and alone I have no problem, collectively they have a huge PR problem. The internet has done them damage beyond their own comprehension.

The police are to blame for their own PR problem. The internet has documented their crimes, but the damage done is by those cops themselves. Put the blame where it rightly needs to be.

[guyser]

The police are to blame for their own PR problem. The internet has documented their crimes, but the damage done is by those cops themselves. Put the blame where it rightly needs to be.

Yes that is what I should have said.

The Cops were doing stupid stuff all along, I didnt believe it much....ie the Cherry Beach Express..., but the internet + cameras have exposed them as worse than I ever imagined.

[H10]

Yeah I would never show cops ID if they asked for it if I was doing nothing wrong, unless I was driving a vehicle. Even then, I'd ask if I was being detained and if so, seek council, as is my right.

I am always interested by this. I think most people know their rights, but are you willing to spend 2 nights in jail for not showing your id and get strip searched and finger printed, beat up and phony charges posted against you? This is the reality for not showing your ID in toronto. You think the cops are going to allow you to just walk away? These are TORONTO POLICE. They will beat your ass up until your head swells up like a watermelon with tubes up your nose, unprovoked and then lie and say you attacked them and resisted arrest like they did to Jamma Jamma. Jamma Jamma was the Somali immigrant who a toronto cop was caught on tape beating up by a tourist. And the cop told literally hundreds of lies and laid all these false charges against the guy and he was going to gt 10 years in jail and then deported for "Attacking cops" and "beating up cops" and ended up with a tube in his nose handcuffed on a hospital bed. The video later shows that the cop never even talked to Jamma Jamma, he just punched him out and started whaling on him without any words or action or anything. The case got thrown out and the cop got off the hook.

Toronto police are deranged psychos, you can try to exercise your rights but it is useless because if there is no video you will just end up in jail and or prison and beat up and unemployable with a criminal record for assaulting an officer just for refusing to show your id.

[H10]

I'm not defending anything here but the benefit of these seminars are double-edged. They provide needed info but they also "arm" testeroned male teens to test limits as they are prone to do with everything in their life. Knowledge is power but without wisdom is a dangerous catalyst.

Yeah testosterone male teens testing their limits of what is suppose to be your legal right to not talk to police if you haven't done anything wrong. This is the problem, in Canada, exercising your legal rights is portrayed as testing the limits. Why isn't it the police who are viewed as pushing the boundaries of a free society with their carding practices which are illegal, arbitrary, harassing and seemingly gustapo style. You have to have id just to walk on the street, you have to id yourself to government agents while going for walk in the park or else a cop might beat you up and lay a bunch of false charges to ruin your life and future, does this sound like a free country to you? IMO it'd be far better to be attacked by a random criminal than a cop because at least the random criminal will usually run away after he stole your money. The cop will beat you on the street, then strip search you naked, finger print you, then probably beat you again at the police station. Then he'll write a report chalked full of lies about how you punched him in the face so he was justified to shoot you in the back and nearly kill you. And even if he is found to be lying, the crown will never charge him because the cop likely is testifying across a dozen cases at any given time and works hand in hand with the crown, so you'll never get justice.

It would seem far more effective we lobby our government to get the right not to show ID. Because it doesn't exist when you can be jailed for exercising your right. Its like you have the right to a lawyer right. Well what if when you or any civilian tried to call your lawyer, the cop beat you up and made up phony charges that you attacked him? Does this sound like a right to you, or a privilege that the cop can extend if he isn't a complete violent thug and gang banger. These sound like temporary privileges to me, not rights.

[Argus]

It would seem far more effective we lobby our government to get the right not to show ID. Because it doesn't exist when you can be jailed for exercising your right. Its like you have the right to a lawyer right. Well what if when you or any civilian tried to call your lawyer, the cop beat you up and made up phony charges that you attacked him? Does this sound like a right to you, or a privilege that the cop can extend if he isn't a complete violent thug and gang banger. These sound like temporary privileges to me, not rights.

What, exactly is the problem with showing ID? We all live in this society. It's in our interests for the police to be able to properly identify and keep track of the nastier ones among us who insist on breaking laws all the time. I've only ever been stopped once by a cop, and that was when leaving the bar I used to work at at about 3AM. The interaction lasted about thirty seconds and then I was driving off on my bike. I recognize that some people get stopped more than I ever did. Then again some people are out in the wee hours of the morning a lot more than I ever was.

[guyser]

Because one need not show anything walking down the street minding their own business.

It is an abuse of authority and a violation in ones Charter rights.

[TimG]

What, exactly is the problem with showing ID? We all live in this society.

Because there are plenty of good reasons for law abiding citizens to leave the house without ID (i.e. if I go running I don't take ID). This means police asking for ID requires that they be able to detain people without ID even if there is no evidence that they did anything wrong. This would be a clear violation of rights.

Now if police simply accept the "I have no ID" excuse then what is point of even asking?

Edited April 20, 2015 by TimG

[Argus]

Because one need not show anything walking down the street minding their own business.

It is an abuse of authority and a violation in ones Charter rights.

I see nothing wrong with it. I don't consider it either an abuse of authority or of my rights.

[Argus]

Because there are plenty of good reasons for law abiding citizens to leave the house without ID (i.e. if I go running I don't take ID). This means police asking for ID requires that they be able to detain people without ID even if there is no evidence that they did anything wrong. This would be a clear violation of rights.

Now if police simply accept the "I have no ID" excuse then what is point of even asking?

I might have no ID, but I'd be able to say who I was and where I lived. I admit it depends on circumstances, on time and location and, yes, frequency. And how polite they were.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Argus

[Big Guy]

Well Toronto now has a black Chief of Police. Maybe now only white guys will have to show their ID?

[eyeball]

I see nothing wrong with it. I don't consider it either an abuse of authority or of my rights.

That's because you're an authoritarian at heart.

You would make a really good dictator, especially one that's beholden to a powerful patron.