Police 'carding'

[jacee]

Ever been asked for ID by police when you've done nothing wrong? You don't have to show it ... but if you refuse they may threaten to make up some bogus charge and arrest you.

I remember a story about 4 Regent Park kids who'd been to a Civil Liberties seminar. When police asked them for ID, they refused and one of them tried to walk away, as they'd been told to do. Police attacked and beat them up for the 'suspicious behaviour' of walking away, charged them with resisting, obstructing. They had done nothing wrong. Charges were later dropped.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2012/08/07/toronto_police_tavis_stop_of_four_teens_ends_in_arrests_captured_on_video.html?app=noRedirect

Police keep records 'cards' on all police contacts, even when police approach and accost you without reason.

Toronto police chief Blair defends the practice, eeven while reluctantly acknowledging that it's illegal:

http://www.oyetimes.com/news/canada/56854-chief-blair-admits-police-carding-can-become-illegal-at-times

During an exclusive interview over the issue of legality of carding, Toronto police Chief Bill Blair alleged that if done improperly, it can cross the threshold into illegality.

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Statistics show that those carded are disproportionately black and brown, while some more strict legal experts assert that the practice infringes the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

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Upon inquiry about the threshold after which the controversial practice becomes illegal, he replied that I think there is a point at which, if a person is detained without justification, then it can be illegal.

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On the other hand, the civil rights lawyer who aims at abolishing carding, Peter Rosenthal, mentioned in response to Blairs comment that if he acknowledges the danger, thats another reason to desist from the practice.

I think police need to stop accosting and threatening innocent people, especially people of colour and youth. We should all be able to go about our business without police harassment. We don't pay police to be thugs, intimidating and assaulting innocent kids!

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Edited December 28, 2013 by jacee

[GostHacked]

These officers need to be fired. This is disgusting behaviour by the police. These are the people supposed to protect and server. Who are they protecting and serving? Our tax dollars are paying for our own abuse.

We need a zero tolerance policy for these actions. Not sure what else I can say.

If a person is detained without justification , it IS illegal. Unless we have our very own PATRIOT Act and NDAA laws that 'allow' this to take place.

Is that a police state around the corner?

[jacee]

These officers need to be fired. This is disgusting behaviour by the police. These are the people supposed to protect and server. Who are they protecting and serving? Our tax dollars are paying for our own abuse.

Good point. The officers should have been disciplined. Then other cops would be more careful about harassing innocent kids.

[GostHacked]

Good point. The officers should have been disciplined. Then other cops would be more careful about harassing innocent kids.

Not just kids, adults, everyone. But kids are an easier target for hot headed cops. Easier to throw down and feel like the man. Also easier to incite and entice a situation involving teenagers. Testosterone and all that. But this time the cops hot headedness got them involved with an innocent group. Stuff like this puts more distrust in police and their actions. It's a turning point in society where we now ask the question in our heads 'Is the cop here to help me or harm me?'. That should not ever be a question needing to be asked. We never think of firefighters in that way. They are there to help.

Ironic to be arrested after coming out of a seminar that speaks to just this type of situation. Could also be just a set up and a psy-op by authorities and police. Arrest some informed people to scare the others into being good slaves and don't question authority. Papers please.

[Moonlight Graham]

Yeah I would never show cops ID if they asked for it if I was doing nothing wrong, unless I was driving a vehicle. Even then, I'd ask if I was being detained and if so, seek council, as is my right.

[Wilber]

Yeah I would never show cops ID if they asked for it if I was doing nothing wrong, unless I was driving a vehicle. Even then, I'd ask if I was being detained and if so, seek council, as is my right.

Refusing to show your drivers licence at a traffic stop would likely be a good way to get yourself detained.

[GostHacked]

Refusing to show your drivers licence at a traffic stop would likely be a good way to get yourself detained.

Not before I ask what the reasons are for requiring the need to see the documents. Know your rights.

[jacee]

Not just kids, adults, everyone. But kids are an easier target for hot headed cops. Easier to throw down and feel like the man. Also easier to incite and entice a situation involving teenagers. Testosterone and all that. But this time the cops hot headedness got them involved with an innocent group. Stuff like this puts more distrust in police and their actions. It's a turning point in society where we now ask the question in our heads 'Is the cop here to help me or harm me?'. That should not ever be a question needing to be asked. We never think of firefighters in that way. They are there to help.

The point has been made to police that they are destroying the chances that people in the community will come forward and work with them on the real issues of crime in their neighbourhoods.

Ironic to be arrested after coming out of a seminar that speaks to just this type of situation. Could also be just a set up and a psy-op by authorities and police. Arrest some informed people to scare the others into being good slaves and don't question authority. Papers please.

The way I wrote it is a bit misleading: They weren't coming from the seminar at that time. They had been to such a seminar in the recent past, but not that day.

However, I suspect that the kid who told them he knew his rights and tried to walk away was the spark that set off the thug cops.

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[jacee]

Not before I ask what the reasons are for requiring the need to see the documents. Know your rights.

Ya ... they're supposed to tell you why they've stopped you or accosted you on the street but ... I tried that once at a protest "What are the charges, Officer?" and the thug cop got all hot and nasty and said "If you want charges I can lay charges ... blah blah blah!"

I recommend instead "I don't have any ID with me. Have a nice day!"

Edited December 28, 2013 by jacee

[Wilber]

Not before I ask what the reasons are for requiring the need to see the documents. Know your rights.

Proving you have the proper license to drive has nothing to do with your rights. Driving is not a right.

[GostHacked]

Proving you have the proper license to drive has nothing to do with your rights. Driving is not a right.

Can't drive on the corporations roads without obtaining a license from them. Cities are corporations. It's a privilege, yes I know. But I still have rights as a human and a citizen. Kind of dispels the notion of 'free travel in a 'free society'. Infrastructure owned by a corporation (aka a city) in which you pay taxes to use and yet you still need to prove that you deserve to be on those roads when no law has been broken.

[GostHacked]

Just to keep topical too. These guys were not driving. So what need would there be to show their ID if not charged or suspected of doing anything?

[Wilber]

Can't drive on the corporations roads without obtaining a license from them. Cities are corporations. It's a privilege, yes I know. But I still have rights as a human and a citizen. Kind of dispels the notion of 'free travel in a 'free society'. Infrastructure owned by a corporation (aka a city) in which you pay taxes to use and yet you still need to prove that you deserve to be on those roads when no law has been broken.

Don't be silly. You have to be able to show you are qualified to operate a vehicle. We do that by testing and issuing licenses. If I had been flying you from Ottawa to somewhere, do you not think I should have been required to carry the appropriate licenses and also be required to show them to the appropriate authorities when demanded?

Driving without a license is breaking the law. If you are driving a vehicle and do not provide an appropriate license when requested by the police, you will likely be fined and may end up taking another mode of transportation home.

Know your rights by all means. Also know what is not your right, it may prevent you from doing something stupid.

[Wilber]

Just to keep topical too. These guys were not driving. So what need would there be to show their ID if not charged or suspected of doing anything?

I don't know. Maybe none.

[Bob Macadoo]

I'm not defending anything here but the benefit of these seminars are double-edged. They provide needed info but they also "arm" testeroned male teens to test limits as they are prone to do with everything in their life. Knowledge is power but without wisdom is a dangerous catalyst.

[Topaz]

Here's a thought, when the police ask for your ID, for no apparent reason, ask why, then ask for their badge number, they may change their mind.

[jacee]

I'm not defending anything here but the benefit of these seminars are double-edged. They provide needed info but they also "arm" testeroned male teens to test limits as they are prone to do with everything in their life. Knowledge is power but without wisdom is a dangerous catalyst.

Once the police have your name on a 'card', it follows you forever. The kids were taught their rights because of the local police practice of harassing innocent kids randomly on the street and demanding names so they can 'card' them.

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[Bonam]

Here's a thought, when the police ask for your ID, for no apparent reason, ask why, then ask for their badge number, they may change their mind.

They may change their mind, or they may beat you up. Worth the risk?

[jacee]

Proving you have the proper license to drive has nothing to do with your rights. Driving is not a right.

They can't just stop you randomly and demand your license. They have to see an infraction or justify a 'reasonable suspicion' of something.

Driving within the law is a right.

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[jacee]

Here's a thought, when the police ask for your ID, for no apparent reason, ask why, then ask for their badge number, they may change their mind.

No, they get really nasty then and threaten you with bogus charges. If you are a teen or person of colour, they might beat you up.

[WWWTT]

They can't just stop you randomly and demand your license. They have to see an infraction or justify a 'reasonable suspicion' of something.

Driving within the law is a right.

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I'm not so sure about that one jacee?

I do not believe that driving is a right (however a good argument can be made that it is since earning a living is a right and driving can be a part of that) .

However, I believe the police can not randomly search your vehicle or your person. Or ask people who are passengers for their ID.

Pulling you over to make sure you have a license and insurance sounds reasonable within their job in protecting the roads, freeways, etc.

WWWTT

[Wilber]

They can't just stop you randomly and demand your license. They have to see an infraction or justify a 'reasonable suspicion' of something.

Driving within the law is a right.

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Show me in the charter where it says you have the right to drive. It is a privilege and only then if you have a valid drivers licence and are driving a legally registered and insured vehicle.

[jacee]

I'm not so sure about that one jacee?

You're right.

http://m.thestar.com/#!/news/redirect/7620b2ff82bd72089f70113bbec858d6

I do not believe that driving is a right (however a good argument can be made that it is since earning a living is a right and driving can be a part of that) .

I don't believe they've yet revoked the right to drive within the law.

However, I believe the police can not randomly search your vehicle or your person. Or ask people who are passengers for their ID.

Pulling you over to make sure you have a license and insurance sounds reasonable within their job in protecting the roads, freeways, etc.

WWWTT

I wouldn't refuse ID driving a vehicle, but walking on the street is another matter.

[Moonlight Graham]

No, they get really nasty then and threaten you with bogus charges. If you are a teen or person of colour, they might beat you up.

If you really want to protect yourself, always video-record all of your encounters with police. It may irk them and turn a warning into a speeding ticket, but it is 100% within your rights and there's nothing they can do about it, and it will protect you against police misconduct.

I personally wouldn't record them if I were in a car because they could give you some kind of ticket in retribution, but I would record them any other time.

[Bonam]

If you really want to protect yourself, always video-record all of your encounters with police. It may irk them and turn a warning into a speeding ticket, but it is 100% within your rights and there's nothing they can do about it, and it will protect you against police misconduct.

I personally wouldn't record them if I were in a car because they could give you some kind of ticket in retribution, but I would record them any other time.

Recording is no protection at all unless you have a hidden recording device. They can easily confiscate a phone/camera if they feel like it.