guyser Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Wilber, dont confuse the issue. The issue down there is that it is against the Constitution to be asked to show ID. In this country asked to show a DL when behind the wheel is legal, there it isnt. Didnt you notice none of the cops could or would answer the question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Wilber, dont confuse the issue. The issue down there is that it is against the Constitution to be asked to show ID. In this country asked to show a DL when behind the wheel is legal, there it isnt. Didnt you notice none of the cops could or would answer the question? I'm not confused. You are driving a vehicle, you need to be able to show that you have a license to drive one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 I'm not confused. You are driving a vehicle, you need to be able to show that you have a license to drive one.No thats not correct down there. Apparently it is against the 4th amendment to stop just to check for a DL . Did you not notice none of the cops would answer the question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 No thats not correct down there. Apparently it is against the 4th amendment to stop just to check for a DL . Did you not notice none of the cops would answer the question? I don't live down there. Do you think American pilots should stand by their 4th amendment rights when asked for their pilots license by a peace officer or federal agent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 I don't live down there. I know, but we are talking about down there Do you think American pilots should stand by their 4th amendment rights when asked for their pilots license by a peace officer or federal agent? A cop wouldnt have any reason (nor jurisdiction) to ask for a pilots licence so it is a moot point. A federal agent could, but those are rules exempt from some of the constitution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 I know, but we are talking about down there A cop wouldnt have any reason (nor jurisdiction) to ask for a pilots licence so it is a moot point. A federal agent could, but those are rules exempt from some of the constitution. Now you are making it up as you go along. Why have a license to do anything if you never need to show it unless you break the law or kill someone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Now you are making it up as you go along. Why have a license to do anything if you never need to show it unless you break the law or kill someone? making up what wilber? The facts are there, if you dont want to know them and talk via ignorance, then fine, but dont debate what the truth is. In Tennessee the law states that a Cop can ask for it......after he has witnessed a violation or has reasonable suspicion of wrong doing. Pretty sure this covers it. Deleware v. Prouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 The OP was about Canada. What do you care about the 4th amendment? All I know is that it's BS in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) The OP was about Canada. What do you care about the 4th amendment? All I know is that it's BS in this case.You replied to GH who re-upped this discussion with the video. So one cannot say the OP was about Canada when you replied and discussed about something in Tennessee....right? In this case it is BS, but sadly the cops are the last to know that. They shouldnt be doing such silly things as DL checkpoints. DUI checkpoints are legal as shown by Michigan Law (believe the US Surpeme Court agreed with it too) and Canadian Law. Someone has to stand up for the rights of citizens. Edited March 28, 2014 by Guyser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) You replied to GH who re-upped this discussion with the video. So one cannot say the OP was about Canada when you replied and discussed about something in Someone has to stand up for the rights of citizens. So why is he re-upping stuff that has nothing to do with Canada? You mean the right of not having to share the road with a bunch of people without drivers licenses? I'm all for it. Edited March 28, 2014 by Wilber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 So why is he re-upping stuff that has nothing to do with Canada? You mean the right of not having to share the road with a bunch of people without drivers licenses? I'm all for it. Have a nice evening wilber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Thanks. You to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 Jeez GostHacked, you don't think someone who is driving a car should need to show they have a license to drive one? If no crime is suspected, then there is no reason to stop. If the only crime suspected is driving without the license, that is not an offense you can be jailed for. It's a simple fine in most cases. Now notice a couple other things in the video. The man refused to show his ID, because the police could not give a proper of justifiable reason for the stop. The man also told them he does not consent to a search. But yet later in the video the back door on the jeep was opened and the insides checked out by a police office. So on top of the illegal detainment, his vehicle was illegally searched. Why get one at all? Whenever I got ramped by the feds and asked to show my pilots license, you think I should tell them to go to hell, I don't need to show them no damn license, fire up the aircraft and bugger off? Keep that in mind the next time you get on an aircraft or ship. They guys running it might just be exercising their rights. Aircraft are not cars or trucks. A different situation with a different set of rules. There is no equation between the two. And if you are needing to show your pilots license, then you are not showing it to a cop, it would be a federal or state agent. The Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 The OP was about Canada. What do you care about the 4th amendment? All I know is that it's BS in this case. I have seen cases all over the world that are like this. Fine how about this one from the G20 summit. Remember this was under the guise of special extra powers that were NEVER granted to the police in the first place. Notice the cop's words and behavior. Just poking and prodding and looking for anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 Want more ?? Even if I am searching for incidents in Canada specifically, I get a flood of incidents in the US. The only other thing that pops up is a few of the incidents during the G20 in Toronto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 I think the G20 is a special case, in terms of the liberties taken by government and security agents, the methods they used to justify their actions legally, and also the backlash that happened. So, nobody can claim that extraordinary measures have NOT been taken to restrict rights of protesters. In the case of the G20 meeting in Ontario a few years ago, there was a huge political backlash as well. At the other edge of this discussion, there are those who say we have unprecedented oppression, surveillance by the authorities and so on. I suppose I'm just asking for people on this thread to acknowledge that there is a spectrum of views - and that a 'fringe' element exists on both sides of the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 If no crime is suspected, then there is no reason to stop. If the only crime suspected is driving without the license, that is not an offense you can be jailed for. It's a simple fine in most cases. Now notice a couple other things in the video. The man refused to show his ID, because the police could not give a proper of justifiable reason for the stop. The man also told them he does not consent to a search. But yet later in the video the back door on the jeep was opened and the insides checked out by a police office. So on top of the illegal detainment, his vehicle was illegally searched. Aircraft are not cars or trucks. A different situation with a different set of rules. There is no equation between the two. And if you are needing to show your pilots license, then you are not showing it to a cop, it would be a federal or state agent. The So you think it is OK for people to be driving around without licenses as long as they don't commit any crime. The justification for the stop was to see if he had a license. If you watch the video where the guy did produce his license, all the officer did was look at him, the picture and check the expiry date. If he happened to be a felon they were looking for and the officer recognized him. So much the better, or are you against police officers recognizing felons. Aircraft, cars and trucks are all moving vehicles that can do a great deal of damage if operated by incompetent people. Operating a motor vehicle is not a right, it is a privilege and it is not even that if you don't have a valid license to operate one. From CARS 103.02 (1) The owner or operator of an aircraft shall, on reasonable notice given by the Minister, make the aircraft available for inspection in accordance with the notice. (2) Every person who (a) is the holder of a Canadian aviation document, (b) is the owner, operator or pilot-in-command of an aircraft in respect of which a Canadian aviation document, technical record or other document is kept, or (c) has in possession a Canadian aviation document, technical record or other document relating to an aircraft or a commercial air service shall produce the Canadian aviation document, technical record or other document for inspection in accordance with the terms of a demand made by a peace officer, an immigration officer or the Minister. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 BTW. If cop ever asks to see your license when you are in the US, keep us posted on what happened after you refused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 Maybe the other side of the fringe is marked by those who don't believe in the rights of income tax, or of the rights for police to stop vehicles to check drivers' licenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 Maybe the other side of the fringe is marked by those who don't believe in the rights of income tax, or of the rights for police to stop vehicles to check drivers' licenses. Well Michael, I can see their point if you are asked for your license if you are walking down the street minding your own business but not when you are actually driving your vehicle. If you are going to act like a jerk when dealing with the police, expect to be treated like one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 It seems like a good defining line between what is mainstream opinion and what is fringe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 It seems like a good defining line between what is mainstream opinion and what is fringe. The balance required to maintain an acceptable division between respecting personal freedoms and giving police the tools they need to do their job will always be tricky. With few exceptions it is in their and societies best interest for the majority of people to help the police do their job, not obstruct them over points of principal. People should act according to what is reasonable. Just making a point of sticking to a right for no other reason than you can and want to make like a hero by sticking it to the man, is just plain ignorant at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 The OP was about Canada. What do you care about the 4th amendment? All I know is that it's BS in this case. True, but we all know how that goes. Godwin's Law #2 states: "As a MLW discussion about Canada grows longer, the probability of a reference or comparison involving the U.S. approaches 1". Police carding in Canada has nothing to do with the U.S. Constitution or Tennessee, as you pointed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Wilber excellent responses. There are some similarities with Canadian and US constitutional rights with arbitrary search and seizure but the reality is there are many more layers of legal enforcement jurisdiction and agencies in the US and the propensity for someone on the street to be carrying a gun is so much greater police and other enforcement agencies have had to adapt far more aggressive and pro active approaches on the streets. Interestingly domestic violence calls still lead to the most deaths of police officers in the US or Canada. In the US since there are far more cities and therefore gangs, police obviously have had more exposure to gangs and have adapted certain tactics that no we would not use in smaller towns in Canada or for that matter in the US. Population density usually dictates the policing practices on the street. In more rural and isolated areas, police are more often working alone so their approach to situations has to be different for that reason alone. They can't get back up as quickly and even if they get back up they can't get as much so often they depend on people in the community to help calm down drunks or keep them calm. A person who knows a police officer by name and personality by the way is less likely to want to hurt them intentionally and that is why officers say in rural areas who patrol alone try use that familiarity as a social restraint tool The reality is the police carding issue in large cities like Toronto just further isolates police from players on the street and that absence of interaction is not good. It won't change things in smaller towns. Policing methods will always evolve according to the amount of population, the population density in the area policed and whether the people being policed have weapons or not. I The experts on policing you were addressing live in a world where everyone is a victim of police oppression if they are asked what's up. Then again they will be the first to support police states provided they are anti American. Go figure it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 BTW. If cop ever asks to see your license when you are in the US, keep us posted on what happened after you refused. If I am in the USA I have to play by their rules. I am not an American citizen and not granted the same rights as them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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