waldo Posted November 22, 2013 Report Share Posted November 22, 2013 The Green Act needs to be reversed and cheaper power generated. Power Advisory LLC deconstructed a representative Ontario customer electric bill: ... electricity supply costs account for about half of the total average monthly bill of $154.42 for 2012. Delivery costs made up 30% of the total bill, taxes 12%, and the rest was split up between Regulatory Charges and the Debt Retirement Charge. Of the supply costs, about half (49%) is paid to nuclear generators, 18% is for generation from hydroelectric sources, 15% is for gas-fired generation, and 6% is for coal. Wind is 5% of the total supply cost and solar, biomass and other sources make up the remaining 7% ... study finds cancelling the Green Energy Act would have little effect on electricity prices in Ontario Ontario consumers would see virtually no relief from high electricity prices if the province cancelled its support for renewable energy under the Green Energy Act, according to new research released today by the Pembina Institute. In fact, the study indicates that investing in renewable energy today is likely to save Ontario ratepayers money within the next 15 years, as natural gas becomes more expensive and as the cost of renewable energy technology continues to decrease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 In many states and provinces these smartmeters were put in to save you money. I don't think that is the case, unless you work for the marketing department of an electricity supplier. Domestic smart meters have one purpose: to increase revenue for utility providers with a very small investment. No need to upgrade generation, transmission or distribution capacities at great cost, just cahnge the meter and start cashing in. The largest investment is not the meters themselves. No, the biggest cost is the marketing barrage required to convince captive consumers that they are part of some environmental crusade. Most people use energy during peak hours because they must. They come home from work, cook dinner, do laundry, read to the kids and go to bed. Repeat for 60 years, die. Nobody is going to get up at 3 AM to make toast and have a shower. Regarding utility costs in Alberta: what the graphs above do not show is contract costs for Hydro. I pay Enmax $.08 per kwh and that rate is guaranteed for five years. I can opt out of the deal with one months notice to Enmax if the regulated rate drops as it floats up and down. There are no demand charges or time-of-use fees so far for domestic users. Industruil customers have had both for many years . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 MLW member PIK, although you're a master baiter, I'm not biting... do you actually have anything to add to this thread? Yes hydro rates are killing this province. I pay over $ 20,000 in hydro and it keeps going up and up with no end in site. How can anyone say they support the ONT libs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 I've had experience with induction cooktops in New Zealand. They are interesting, but I won't be buying one soon because a) they are expensive to buy as compared to gas or dual fuel ranges they require specific cookware which is not cheap. These two factors mean that aesthetics aside, the payback for induction cookers is just not there, they don't make economic sense here. The lack of payback is compounded by the very low price of natural gas now and in the foreseeable future. Maybe when the purchase price is halved and cookware gets cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 I've had experience with induction cooktops in New Zealand. They are interesting, but I won't be buying one soon because a) they are expensive to buy as compared to gas or dual fuel ranges they require specific cookware which is not cheap. These two factors mean that aesthetics aside, the payback for induction cookers is just not there, they don't make economic sense here. The lack of payback is compounded by the very low price of natural gas now and in the foreseeable future. Maybe when the purchase price is halved and cookware gets cheaper. considering one will have the cooktop/range for a few years, not that expensive... some of the up-front cost differential is 'recovered' in terms of efficiency as compared to conventional electric or gas. Me likee this bad-boy for a year or so now. If you've already got a set of higher end cookware, they're likely 'induction ready' - I only had to change out a few frying pans... some of the manufacturers have been running incentive offers throwing in a complete new set of cookware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Yes hydro rates are killing this province. I pay over $ 20,000 in hydro and it keeps going up and up with no end in site. How can anyone say they support the ONT libs. grow-ops are a beeatch hey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Environmentalists are charlatans. They're the equivalent of the "you can eat whatever you want, not exercise and still lose weight!" scammers. I wish they would just be honest. And tell people the truth. Look, hydro rates will go up, but it's necessary for a clean environment. But instead, they continue to be dishonest. And claim their polices have absolutely no negatives. In other words, eat whatever you want, don't exercise, and still lose weight. When we all know that neither is possible. When you shut down lesser expensive forms of producing energy, and replace them with more expensive forms of producing energy, there are going to be price differences. When you cut the supply of energy, while demand stays constant, or climbs, there are going to be price differences. It's math. You can't argue with math. It doesn't have an ideology like these charlatans do, but pretend not to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 considering one will have the cooktop/range for a few years, not that expensive... some of the up-front cost differential is 'recovered' in terms of efficiency as compared to conventional electric or gas. Me likee this bad-boy for a year or so now. If you've already got a set of higher end cookware, they're likely 'induction ready' - I only had to change out a few frying pans... some of the manufacturers have been running incentive offers throwing in a complete new set of cookware. I did the payback calculations on an induction cooktop/built in oven vs gas range a couple years ago(and at a time when gas prices were about double what they are today). It was about 24 years to break even, which is longer than the life of the appliance so it makes no sense at all for me. It makes even less financial sense as the cost of induction appliances have not really changed and gas is cheaper now. I acknowledge that induction tops are trendy and cool. Another trendy and cool appliance lately is demand water heaters. My best mate is a gasfitting instructor and his class did a payback analysis on several versions of same vs standard water heaters. Their best payback period- based on energy usage in a typical Canadian home- was about 25 years. Water heaters are rated at an average of perhaps 15 years of life, with wide variations depending on usage and local water quality. They're trendy but have no point for most people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 in 2005 the Ontario Government instituted the Global Adjustment (GA) charge as a means to collect from Ontario customers any shortfalls in the costs of generation contracts or regulated rates. Per the 2011-2012 Ontario Energy Board Report, since 2006 a breakdown of the sources behind GA charges has been: - 45 percent is attributable to the Bruce Power and OPG nuclear units - 28 percent is attributable to OEFC‟s NUG contracts and contingency financial support for OPG‟s coal-fired generation - 13 percent is attributable to CES and early-mover gas-fired generation contracts - 8 percent is attributable to other sources such as demand response and payments for the output of OPG‟s prescribed hydroelectric assets - 6 percent is attributable to renewable assets, primarily wind and solar resources The percentage of where ontario's energy comes from isn't very relevant with respect to price. What is relevant is the demand of energy relative to the supply of energy and the marginal cost to produce energy. The demand curve for energy is very inelastic (compared to other markets) so a small change in the supply of energy leads to large changes in price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 The percentage of where ontario's energy comes from isn't very relevant with respect to price. What is relevant is the demand of energy relative to the supply of energy and the marginal cost to produce energy. The demand curve for energy is very inelastic (compared to other markets) so a small change in the supply of energy leads to large changes in price. no - you apparently don't understand what the Global Adjustment is. You're making an incorrect interpretation of what was said... the source reference is not with respect to your stated, "where Ontario's energy comes from"; rather, as stated referencing GA charges, it refers to the cost percentage (of the GA charges) attributed to the respective energy types/sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 (edited) Ontario "hydro" bills are baffling and shocking to many consumers. This piece describes the frustration well: In Ontario, electricity bills are reason to weep If you live in Ontario, deciphering your electricity bill is like trying to crack the encryption on a BlackBerry. It might tax even the professional snoopers at the U.S. National Security Agency. It’s not as simple as multiplying the amount of power you use each month by the market price per kilowatt-hour. Beyond your “electricity” charge, there’s a “delivery” charge, a “regulatory” charge, a “debt retirement” charge and an Orwellian-sounding “clean energy benefit.” And there’s a twisted political saga behind each one of them. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/in-ontario-electricity-bills-are-reason-to-weep/article14270421/ Edited December 2, 2013 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Ontario is suffering from self-inflicted GEA wounds: You really care a lot about Ontario. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 You really care a lot about Ontario. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. For purely practical reasons....Ontario borders my state and we are concerned about the massive inflow of economic refugees caused by the collapse of manufacturing, high power bills, crushing debt, low productivity, bad hockey teams, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 For purely practical reasons....Ontario borders my state and we are concerned about the massive inflow of economic refugees caused by the collapse of manufacturing, high power bills, crushing debt, low productivity, bad hockey teams, etc. Lol. No, it's purely for your trolling of this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Lol. No, it's purely for your trolling of this forum. No, it's true. We see Ontario's economic refugees at our petrol stations, shopping malls, health care facilities, etc. Sad..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 no - you apparently don't understand what the Global Adjustment is. You're making an incorrect interpretation of what was said... the source reference is not with respect to your stated, "where Ontario's energy comes from"; rather, as stated referencing GA charges, it refers to the cost percentage (of the GA charges) attributed to the respective energy types/sources. Cost percentage, where energy comes from, doesn't matter. What is relevant is the demand of energy relative to the supply of energy and the marginal cost to produce energy. The demand curve for energy is very inelastic (compared to other markets) so a small change in the supply of energy leads to large changes in price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Cost percentage, where energy comes from, doesn't matter. What is relevant is the demand of energy relative to the supply of energy and the marginal cost to produce energy. The demand curve for energy is very inelastic (compared to other markets) so a small change in the supply of energy leads to large changes in price. This is the part I don't understand. Demand increases so price increases. I see the truth of that when there isn't enough energy to meet the demand, resulting in gas shortages or brown-outs etc. But the Energy companies are indeed meeting the demand. There are no lineups at gas stations, or rationing, or brown-outs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 no - you apparently don't understand what the Global Adjustment is. You're making an incorrect interpretation of what was said... the source reference is not with respect to your stated, "where Ontario's energy comes from"; rather, as stated referencing GA charges, it refers to the cost percentage (of the GA charges) attributed to the respective energy types/sources. Cost percentage, where energy comes from, doesn't matter. no - as stated, you're making an incorrect interpretation of what you quoted (in regards the Global Adjustment). You've now done it twice - is there a problem? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 This is the part I don't understand. Demand increases so price increases. I see the truth of that when there isn't enough energy to meet the demand, resulting in gas shortages or brown-outs etc. But the Energy companies are indeed meeting the demand. There are no lineups at gas stations, or rationing, or brown-outs. I think you might be confusing demand (as in a quantity) with a demand curve. The demand curve can increase, and demand can still meet supply. This wikipedia article will probably help you to understand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted December 3, 2013 Report Share Posted December 3, 2013 (edited) Mean while the ottawa river where I live has been running high all year, except they dump the water. Why? Because they have been told to, so we can use the expensive stuff. And then there is niagra falls. Right there is alot of the cheapest, greenest and substainable energy we could ever have. But instead we pay to not produce, and the same with green energy, we pay people not to produce, and some how the liberals think we are saving money. I would like to personally thank the great people of TO and the great party of the NDP for making sure we don't miss out on all those savings. Edited December 3, 2013 by PIK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Wilson Posted December 3, 2013 Report Share Posted December 3, 2013 Mean while the ottawa river where I live has been running high all year, except they dump the water. Why? Because they have been told to, so we can use the expensive stuff. And then there is niagra falls. Right there is alot of the cheapest, greenest and substainable energy we could ever have. But instead we pay to not produce, and the same with green energy, we pay people not to produce, and some how the liberals think we are saving money. I would like to personally thank the great people of TO and the great party of the NDP for making sure we don't miss out on all those savings. Your boy,Mike Harris,started us down the road to utility privatization...Common Sense Revolution indeed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted December 3, 2013 Report Share Posted December 3, 2013 No, it's true. We see Ontario's economic refugees at our petrol stations, shopping malls, health care facilities, etc. Sad..... Canada Derangement Syndrome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted December 3, 2013 Report Share Posted December 3, 2013 Your boy,Mike Harris,started us down the road to utility privatization...Common Sense Revolution indeed... It's not about privatization, it's about energy production restrictions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted December 4, 2013 Report Share Posted December 4, 2013 I think you might be confusing demand (as in a quantity) with a demand curve. The demand curve can increase, and demand can still meet supply. This wikipedia article will probably help you to understand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand The word "demand" has a particular meaning that is specific to the production and billing electricity. "demand" as in 'demand charges' can mean the peak usage of electricity within a given period, and it has been a signigficant component in billing of industrial power consumers for a long time. The meter will have an indicator of peak usage in amperage(not consumption in kwh, the peak amps). Your bill is reset to that peak usage for the folowing year, even if you never approach anywhere near that peak again. Now the demand meters are coming to your homes. Bend Over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 8, 2013 Report Share Posted December 8, 2013 (edited) This could very well be the issue to kill this government. They've recently been very flippant, about hydro prices, almost blaming the users for higher bills. If a compelling argument can be made that companies are leaving Ontario because the hydro we pay isn't competitive then it should be the issue that does these guys in. Edited December 8, 2013 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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