TTC Police Shooting

[bush_cheney2004]

Don't confuse our cops with yours, BC.

We'll tell ours what to do, thanks.

Pumping a young man in distress full of bullets isn't it.

No you won't....police training for "yours" includes escalation to lethal/deadly force.

[H10]

It's actually expected that you would be able to produce evidence of stated facts when it's requested.

You want me to produce a court transcript here? You want it, go to the transcript office at the criminal court on 393 university avenue and order it. I'm not paying for your information.

[H10]

The cops actions instantly posed a danger to themselves and the public. The cop got into a danger zone and killed Yatim. The cops actions posed a threat to any hostage that might be in the street car.

Your turn to be smart.

It always does when they discharge firearms, just today they killed a man in sauga. The cop will get away.

[H10]

Don't confuse our cops with yours, BC.

We'll tell ours what to do, thanks.

Pumping a young man in distress full of bullets isn't it.

Your cops in Toronto were told to stop carding and said no, they are going to keep carding, then the mayor had to back down and publicly reverse himself and look like a fool infront of everyone. Your police service board in peel said to stop carding and the chief out there said make me. Police in Ontario, particularly in the GTA are immune from the law. And until we change the laws to change this, they will continue to kill and beat with immunity. Don't believe, look at adam nobody officer, who else could get so many appeals and get to keep their job after being convicted in a court of felonious assault with a weapon.

My best friend in high school wanted to join the force, and apparently he couldn't because when he was 15 he hit a kid in the back of the helmet with a hockey stick in the middle of a fight. However had he waited 4 more years, he would have been given a gold star for doing it.

[jacee]

No you won't....police training for "yours" includes escalation to lethal/deadly force.

Not that fast without good reason.

We pay their salaries. They work for us.

.

[jacee]

You want me to produce a court transcript here? You want it, go to the transcript office at the criminal court on 393 university avenue and order it. I'm not paying for your information.

If you don't provide supporting evidence, we disregard your claims.

.

[On Guard for Thee]

No you won't....police training for "yours" includes escalation to lethal/deadly force.

Sorry BC, as much as you seem to think you know about all things Canada, you failed on this issue. We don't teach cops to go in with guns blazing here.

[Black Dog]

You want me to produce a court transcript here? You want it, go to the transcript office at the criminal court on 393 university avenue and order it. I'm not paying for your information.

You claimed it was reported in news outlets, so a simple link would suffice. This isn't hard. The more you duck and dodge this, the more it looks like you are full of crap.

[Rue]

Well on either side of this disagreement all of us agree that force being used on the mentally ill is very very problematic and e need a lot more training in days to come with police officers. I am also not aware of the transcripts having been released or shared with the public at this point.

I again defer to Army's past comments. I am not here to vilify either Yatim or the cop but I sure as hell hope we learn from it. We stereotype mentally ill and cops pretty much the same way-we find a negative incident and label them all with it.

Turn these damn things into learning lessons is what I say and I think they will. Each tragedy will provide us new and better ways hopefully to avoid this for the sake of the mentally ill and police.

[Boges]

Forcillo took the stand today.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2015/11/25/forcillo-expected-to-testify-at-sammy-yatim-murder-trial.html

“The first sets of shots were fired because I believed Mr. Yatim was armed with a knife and was in the process of coming off the streetcar at me,” Forcillo told the court.

“The second shots were fired because I believed Mr. Yatim was in the process of getting off the streetcar to continue his attack.”

Forcillo, who told the court he wanted to be a police officer from the age of 12, said he didn’t plan on having the night end with Yatim’s death.

No where did he say that he thought there was a hostage.

Not really sure what new this testimony ads unless dude was charming as Hell, and I doubt that.

But I do find it troubling that he actually thought Yatim was going to get up without even attempt to confirm if he was injured or not.

Forensics discovered that the first 3 shots did fatally wound Yatim.

[jacee]

"... to continue his attack"

What attack? Yatim had not attacked anyone.

If that's the best defense Forcillo has, I think he should go down.

However, I think manslaughter is a more appropriate charge.

.

[Army Guy]

Forcillo took the stand today.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2015/11/25/forcillo-expected-to-testify-at-sammy-yatim-murder-trial.html

No where did he say that he thought there was a hostage.

Not really sure what new this testimony ads unless dude was charming as Hell, and I doubt that.

But I do find it troubling that he actually thought Yatim was going to get up without even attempt to confirm if he was injured or not.

Forensics discovered that the first 3 shots did fatally wound Yatim.

"... to continue his attack"

What attack? Yatim had not attacked anyone.

If that's the best defense Forcillo has, I think he should go down.

However, I think manslaughter is a more appropriate charge.

.

why Manslaughter......and not murder.....I having a hard time with all of this....Yatim was dead, or dying after the first 3 rounds.....according to the corners report.....so why the need for 6 more, if his intention was not to ensure the kid was dead...He executed this kid, and to make matters worse he is a cop, who's duty is to serve and protect.....protect us from the bad guys....to protect our families, our children.....His actions speak volumes, about his professionalism, his training, and about the entire group of cops that were there, and finally the toronto police dept.....Sad to think these are the people who we trust to protect us.....that could have been anyones kid.....

I say murder all the way.....life behind bars without parole.....

Edited November 27, 2015 by Army Guy

[On Guard for Thee]

Forcillo says "he had no choice". Sorry bud, the video proves your statement is complete bullshit. Too bad we have to have cops who seem to just want to pull out their guns. I guess it gives them a sense of power they can't muster otherwise. Hopefully he will be convicted and perhaps some of the others on the job will get the message. However I doubt people who want to be cops, in general, are the most perceptive people in our society.

[jacee]

why Manslaughter......and not murder.....I having a hard time with all of this....Yatim was dead, or dying after the first 3 rounds.....according to the corners report.....so why the need for 6 more, if his intention was not to ensure the kid was dead...He executed this kid, and to make matters worse he is a cop, who's duty is to serve and protect.....protect us from the bad guys....to protect our families, our children.....His actions speak volumes, about his professionalism, his training, and about the entire group of cops that were there, and finally the toronto police dept.....Sad to think these are the people who we trust to protect us.....that could have been anyones kid.....

I say murder all the way.....life behind bars without parole.....

I think Forcillo's just a stupid thug dipsh!t. Why on earth was he in charge?

I think it's horrible and disgusting and yes, murder.

But I think they'll let him off light.

.

Edited November 27, 2015 by jacee

[Rue]

Jaycee is technically correct and they probably tried to offer a manslaugher plea to avoid going to trial but it was rejected.

Murder without premeditation, reckless behaviour without deliberate planned intent to kill is manslaughter or arguably even criminal negligence but not homicide.

[Army Guy]

While you both may be right, that it might be pleaded down to a lesser offense, but i have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact, that it was not his sole intent to kill this young boy......he fires 3 rounds , he can clearly see he drop to the floor of the street car, yes he still has the knife in his hands, and yes he technically is still a threat....but the boy is dead or dying at this point....what should have happened was someone to approach the kid and remove the knife, and start performing first aid.....That did not happen.....

Instead Rambo fires a second volley, not one, two, or three as in the first volley.....but 6 more bullets, followed up with a tazer shot....That action proves what ....to me it proves his intention to kill this young boy.....out right...no jury, no evidence, no nothing.....6 more bullets then a tazer as good measure....all that was missing was an air strike and it would have been Afghanistan all over again....But this was down town Toronto....and the target was a confused kid....

Can we prove that, i don't know , the only one that truly knows is Rambo, and he is going to have to live with this for the rest of his life.....Hopegully he spends some of that behind bars so he can dwell on it for some time...

[Boges]

I think the most damning thing is that Yatim was tazed after the second volley. They were clearly trying to cover their tracks. It would have been obvious once they entered the Streetcar that Yatim was dead or dying and they go and taze him to make it look like they had no other option.

Good thing there was video footage.

[eyeball]

The word peace, in the phrase peace officer really needs to be emphasized and expanded on in all approaches to police work starting from day one in training.

This case and so many like it reflects badly on the entire profession.

[Big Guy]

Looks to me like the question will be "what was in the policemens mind when he fired". There is no disputing facts or the chrononlogy of what happened. There are all kinds of witnesses. I suggest that if the police knew then what we know now then this would never have taken place.

If the defence can convince even one juror that Forcillo "believed" that his life was in danger then he has to be found not guilty.

[eyeball]

Looks to me like the question will be "what was in the policemens mind when he fired". There is no disputing facts or the chrononlogy of what happened. There are all kinds of witnesses. I suggest that if the police knew then what we know now then this would never have taken place.

If the defence can convince even one juror that Forcillo "believed" that his life was in danger then he has to be found not guilty.

Well, assuming someone with such crap-for-brains actually made it on the jury it'll probably then go the SC where presumably people are less influenced by beliefs than reality.

If Forcillo's story is accepted the question should be what is it about conventional police training that results in such abject cowardice.

[Big Guy]

Well, assuming someone with such crap-for-brains actually made it on the jury it'll probably then go the SC where presumably people are less influenced by beliefs than reality.

If Forcillo's story is accepted the question should be what is it about conventional police training that results in such abject cowardice.

You may be correct, but the law is the law. Person A shoots and kills person B. That is a fact. If there is a reason acceptable to our society then the shooter is not guilty. If the defence can show that the reason (could possibly) satisfy the threshold that our society accepts then the person has to be found not guilty.

For example, an individual is slipped a drug which causes him to believe that his friend is going to kill him and the individual then shoots and kills his friend without apparent "provocation", he is not guilty of a crime.

[On Guard for Thee]

You may be correct, but the law is the law. Person A shoots and kills person B. That is a fact. If there is a reason acceptable to our society then the shooter is not guilty. If the defence can show that the reason (could possibly) satisfy the threshold that our society accepts then the person has to be found not guilty.

For example, an individual is slipped a drug which causes him to believe that his friend is going to kill him and the individual then shoots and kills his friend without apparent "provocation", he is not guilty of a crime.

I think you tried to get a little too wordy and blew it with the "could possibly". That does not meet the threshold in our legal system. It will have to be shown that Forcillo HAD REASON to believe that his life or the lives of others were threatened in order to justify killing Yatim. That could be difficult with the existence of the video.

[Big Guy]

I think you tried to get a little too wordy and blew it with the "could possibly". That does not meet the threshold in our legal system. It will have to be shown that Forcillo HAD REASON to believe that his life or the lives of others were threatened in order to justify killing Yatim. That could be difficult with the existence of the video.

Interesting wording and I do not know enough law to disagree. I was under the impression that the prosecution has to prove its case. I guess that would mean that the prosecution would have to show that there was NO REASON for the officer to believe that his life or the lives of others were threatened. We are still dealing with what was in a persons mind. That has always been an area where it is difficult to prove anything. I believe it is a jury trial and we are talking about "reasonable doubt".

The question may again be the subjective term of what is "reasonable".

[On Guard for Thee]

Interesting wording and I do not know enough law to disagree. I was under the impression that the prosecution has to prove its case. I guess that would mean that the prosecution would have to show that there was NO REASON for the officer to believe that his life or the lives of others were threatened. We are still dealing with what was in a persons mind. That has always been an area where it is difficult to prove anything. I believe it is a jury trial and we are talking about "reasonable doubt".

The question may again be the subjective term of what is "reasonable".

The jury has to decide whether or not his actions were reasonable. His biggest problem could be with the attempted murder charge arising from the second volley he fired.

[Boges]

Thin Blue Line

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/12/16/taser-cop-delivers-shocking-testimony-at-forcillo-trial

A veteran Toronto police officer testified he had “no choice” but to Taser a dying Sammy Yatim.

“Once he didn’t drop the knife, he chose not to give up,” Sgt. Dan Pravica told Const. James Forcillo’s murder trial on Wednesday.

“It’s not like he’s putting his hands up and saying, ‘I give up. The fun’s over,’” said Pravica, demonstrating the surrender gesture in the witness stand.

“I have no idea if he’s playing possum. I’m not going to send my officers in there to get slashed in the neck.”

Forcillo has pleaded not guilty to second-degree murder and attempted murder charges in Yatim’s July 2013 death on a downtown streetcar.

Pravica, a 20-year veteran of the service, says the 18-year-old ignored his orders to drop the knife.

Videos played at the trial showed Forcillo arrived on the scene, shouted repeatedly at Yatim to disarm and fired nine bullets at him after a 50-second standoff. The first three bullets included the fatal heart shot, another that paralyzed Yatim from the waist down and the last broke his right arm.

During Crown attorney Ian Bulmer’s cross examination, Pravica said he’d rather be criticized for trying to help somebody “than stand by and let them die.”

“How did I know he was dying? He wasn’t saying he was dying,” Pravica told Bulmer.

The officer said he had “three seconds to decide what to do.”

“You had two years,” he told the Crown. “You work in the courtroom, I work in the streets. Sometimes people (who are shot) keep going and going even after they are clinically dead.”

He ignored your calls to drop the knife because he had been shot and was about to die you freakin' asshat!

He expects anyone with a bit of sense to believe he didn't know Yatim had been shot? Apparently like 7 of 9 shots hit their mark. He didn't hear the shots?

IMHO this cop deserves charges too.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Boges