TTC Police Shooting

[jacee]

Asshats is right!

Its not like hes putting his hands up and saying, I give up. The funs over,

Criminals might know when "the fun's over".

People in mental distress aren't having fun.

They aren't criminals.

They're terrified.

Obviously a lot more educating police is necessary if this asshats thinks that's an appropriate comment.?

.

[Boges]

Asshats is right!

Its not like hes putting his hands up and saying, I give up. The funs over,

Criminals might know when "the fun's over".

People in mental distress aren't having fun.

They aren't criminals.

They're terrified.

Obviously a lot more educating police is necessary if this asshats thinks that's an appropriate comment.

.

Yatim wasn't terrified, he was on drugs. This wasn't a case of mental illness. Regardless, these cops made no efforts to de-escalate the situation, in fact they did the exact opposite.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Boges

[jacee]

Yatim wasn't terrified, he was on drugs. This wasn't a case of mental illness. Regardless, these cops made no efforts to de-escalate the situation, in fact they did the exact opposite.

Point being ...

Drugs and acute Mental illness have in common that the person is in an altered state of reality and not responding 'normally' to police demands.

Agreed. They made no attempt to deescalate.

Police need to stop justifying killing people who are not responding normally to police commands.

That's just not good enough.

And this flippant cop asshat 'the fun's over' and "he wasn't saying he's dying" ... Aaaaaargh!!

.

Edited December 18, 2015 by jacee

[Boges]

Jury has finally started deliberating.

Now that they've been sequestered, the media is revealing some evidence that they weren't allowed to hear.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/01/20/jury-begins-deliberations-in-forcillo-trial.html

Less than a week into the trial Justice Then denied an initial request by the defence to put a suicide-by-cop theory before the jury — specifically that Yatim’s texts and emails showed he was facing personal problems that could have motivated him to commit suicide by inciting a police officer to shoot him.

Then allowed the defence the option of a full hearing outside of the jury’s presence so they could present expert evidence. After hearing that evidence weeks later, Then did not change his mind.

Yatim’s state of mind is irrelevant, he said.

As a result the defence did not call Yatim’s mother, father or sister to testify about Yatim’s final days.

However, since the family members were listed as potential defence witnesses, they were excluded from the courtroom during key moments during the trial, including the opening addresses to the jury by Crown and defence. There was no explanation to the jury and a request by the Crown they be granted an exception was denied.

The first time the videos depicting Yatim’s last moments were played in court, Yatim’s mother was sitting in the hallway outside the courtroom.

The defence wanted to call Yatim's family to the stand to testify that Yatim had a shitty life and that he may have wanted to kill himself. Eff lawyers! Even if Yatim did want to kill himself he hadn't gotten off the streetcar yet. Forcillo was reactionary and reckless.

I fear that he'll be set free though. Can't see him continuing on as a cop though.

[Big Guy]

Verdict:

Second Degree Murder - Not Guilty

Attempted Murder - Guilty

[Big Guy]

Looks to me like the initial volley was OK But second volley (overkill sic) was not OK and an attempt to murder.

[Boges]

At least he got something. I don't think any objective person can see that second volley of bullets as a reasonable show of force.

He can still serve a long sentence for the Attempted Murder Conviction.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Boges

[Boges]

Only involving a cop is a guilty verdict not a conviction.

Forcillo will be appealing everything and be collecting pay while doing so. All while not in custody. I can see the defence stretching this out as long as they can.

[Boges]

An almost 80 page thread debating this and now crickets once the verdict is finally in. Weird.

[jacee]

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/toronto/james-forcillo-verdict-1.3414974

I think the verdict is reasonable.

I still think it's bizarre that on the stand, Forcillo said he fired all those shots, not thinking he would kill him.

What does he think bullets do?

.

[Big Guy]

I do not think that this policeman should be charged with any criminal act.

To what I understand, these two people (defendant and victim) did not know each other before this confrontation. There was no premeditation to the shooting.

The policeman made a very bad decision that could be considered "dumb". Doing something "dumb" should not be a criminal act. There was no intent to create any problems, to get personal gain or to make the policeman's life any better. For me, there was no motivation for this act. I think he acted how he thought he should act. He was wrong.

The fact that he made the wrong decision is a fact. Why this situation happened is another story. Apparently this policeman had a history of pulling his gun in "inappropriate" conditions. If that is the case, why was he still armed and allowed to participate in this confrontation.

It is obvious that this individual should not have been at that place, at that time and had the freedom and opportunity to use a gun while wearing a police uniform.

Who allowed that to happen?

[jacee]

He's been convicted of attempted murder.

[Big Guy]

It is expected that the decision will be appealed, considered by judges (not a jury) based on their criteria and a "final" decision made.

[Boges]

It is expected that the decision will be appealed, considered by judges (not a jury) based on their criteria and a "final" decision made.

On what grounds? Cops shouldn't be convicted for doing dumb shit?

[Moonlight Graham]

I do not think that this policeman should be charged with any criminal act.

To what I understand, these two people (defendant and victim) did not know each other before this confrontation. There was no premeditation to the shooting.

The policeman made a very bad decision that could be considered "dumb". Doing something "dumb" should not be a criminal act.

He made a few very bad decisions. From what I understand, he gave the kid a "comply or die" order while being contained on a bus. The kid stepped forward, was shot 3 times by the cop, then shot 6 more times by the cop. Then he was tazed (by another cop). The only good decision he made was calling for the the guy with the taser to come to the scene.

Despite escalating the situation greatly instead of trying to diffuse it, if he shot him once or twice nobody would have really questioned it. Oh well, hopefully this leads to better training for all cops and more non-lethal solutions to problems.

[On Guard for Thee]

I do not think that this policeman should be charged with any criminal act.

To what I understand, these two people (defendant and victim) did not know each other before this confrontation. There was no premeditation to the shooting.

The policeman made a very bad decision that could be considered "dumb". Doing something "dumb" should not be a criminal act. There was no intent to create any problems, to get personal gain or to make the policeman's life any better. For me, there was no motivation for this act. I think he acted how he thought he should act. He was wrong.

The fact that he made the wrong decision is a fact. Why this situation happened is another story. Apparently this policeman had a history of pulling his gun in "inappropriate" conditions. If that is the case, why was he still armed and allowed to participate in this confrontation.

It is obvious that this individual should not have been at that place, at that time and had the freedom and opportunity to use a gun while wearing a police uniform.

Who allowed that to happen?

He fired 6 rounds (5 of which hit the body) of a man he had already shot and who had collapsed, and was already paralyzed and was no threat to anyone. That is a lot more than a wrong decision, and the jury concluded it was attempted murder, and they are correct.

[Big Guy]

What was his motive?

[Boges]

What was his motive?

Who cares? He shot at someone who objectively wasn't a threat.

He said, on the stand, that he "thought" Yatim was trying to get back up and hadn't dropped the knife. But the security footage flately refutes that. Yatim was down for the count and posed no further threat to Forcillo after the first 3 shots.

I would also like to see charges or further discipline levelled against the officer that tazed Yatim's dying body.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Boges

[On Guard for Thee]

Who cares? He shot at someone who objectively wasn't a threat.

He said, on the stand, that he "thought" Yatim was trying to get back up and hadn't dropped the knife. But the security footage flately refutes that. Yatim was down for the count and posed no further threat to Forcillo after the first 3 shots.

I would also like to see charges or further discipline levelled against the officer that tazed Yatim's dying body.

That part of the incident seems to be edging close to mutilation of a human body, to my mind.

[ReeferMadness]

That part of the incident seems to be edging close to mutilation of a human body, to my mind.

As I understand it, it is unusual for someone to be charged with attempted murder when the victim dies (ie either it's murder or it's not). But here (again, this is my understanding) is the logic.

Forcillo was charged with attempted murder, second degree murder and manslaughter. If the jury didn't accept that he was justified in shooting at all, they could have returned guilty on manslaughter or second degree murder. But obviously, the jury gave him the benefit of the doubt on the first 3 shots.

However, the jury obviously found that he had no justification to fire the second round of 6 shots. Since there was no way of knowing whether it was the first 3 shots or the 6 shots that killed Sammy, they returned guilty on attempted murder instead of murder or manslaughter.

Personally, I question whether he couldn't have found a way to de-escalate the situation or use non-lethal force but I wasn't there. I am happy that a message is being sent to police about use of excessive and unnecessary force.

[On Guard for Thee]

As I understand it, it is unusual for someone to be charged with attempted murder when the victim dies (ie either it's murder or it's not). But here (again, this is my understanding) is the logic.

Forcillo was charged with attempted murder, second degree murder and manslaughter. If the jury didn't accept that he was justified in shooting at all, they could have returned guilty on manslaughter or second degree murder. But obviously, the jury gave him the benefit of the doubt on the first 3 shots.

However, the jury obviously found that he had no justification to fire the second round of 6 shots. Since there was no way of knowing whether it was the first 3 shots or the 6 shots that killed Sammy, they returned guilty on attempted murder instead of murder or manslaughter.

Personally, I question whether he couldn't have found a way to de-escalate the situation or use non-lethal force but I wasn't there. I am happy that a message is being sent to police about use of excessive and unnecessary force.

As I uderstand it they do know that one of the initial 3 rounds severed Yatim's spine and therefore paralyzed him. That made Furcillo's attempt to say Yatim tried to get back up and pose a threat in some way a compete fiction, and led to the conviction based on the second volley which was totally unnecesary. I agree, Yatim was alone in a streetcar surrounded by police with a jackknife. They had the situation under control and could have tried to talk him down, or a little tear gas if need be. No need to go in with guns blazing.

[Hal 9000]

The dude with the taser should be charged too.

[On Guard for Thee]

I see their legal strategy going forward is to ask for a stay of proceedings prior to sentencing based on the theory that Furcillo only acted based on the training he was given by the state, and therefore the state cannot prosecute him doing so. That seems like an uphill battle to say the least, but it will be interesting if the stay is granted. That would put a spotlight on the whole force in TO, and perhaps on all forces across the country.

[Big Guy]

I was surprised that the defense chose judge and jury rather than just judge. I think that if they are going to deal with the nuances of the letter of the law then they would have a better chance against the videos which swayed public emotion.

[Boges]

I see their legal strategy going forward is to ask for a stay of proceedings prior to sentencing based on the theory that Furcillo only acted based on the training he was given by the state, and therefore the state cannot prosecute him doing so. That seems like an uphill battle to say the least, but it will be interesting if the stay is granted. That would put a spotlight on the whole force in TO, and perhaps on all forces across the country.

That was argued already and the judge threw out the motion. It's just a stalling tactic to keep him out of jail and receiving a paycheque from the service.