Where did all the money go to Attawapiskat?

[Michael Hardner]

It's been pointed out by Ezra Levant that on top of all the Federal money that pours into Attawapiskat,there has also been 325 million dollars from a De Beers mine in the last 5 years.There is such a foul stench coming from this whole affair.

Like I say - you can go and read the audit and inform yourself. You won't come away with the idea that they're running the show with the same white-man crack efficiency as, say, Enron or Lehman Brothers but you will at least understand what the issues are a little better.

[ironstone]

Like I say - you can go and read the audit and inform yourself. You won't come away with the idea that they're running the show with the same white-man crack efficiency as, say, Enron or Lehman Brothers but you will at least understand what the issues are a little better.

For the record,I am just as pissed off with Enron etc as I am with people like Teresa Spence.

One big difference is that there is widespread public support for Chief Spence in spite of the lousy job she has been doing,primarily from the left as usual.

[Boges]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Personally, I wouldn't feel that immature behavior on the part of those I'm criticizing gives me the right to accuse people of stealing money and flying to Vegas or joking about the situation. I think there is a time and place for ridicule. Maybe for you, this is it.

I'm not an expert on FN issues. I don't pretend to be. But the whole circus around the Hunger Strikes makes a good portion of this Idle No More thing about this one lady, who's obviously not on a hunger strike. She shouldn't be an inspiration to anyone.

I do think this sideshow has given people the motivation to do some digging and find things like damning audits and practices that show an obvious lack of accountability on the part of the band.

[Michael Hardner]

For the record,I am just as pissed off with Enron etc as I am with people like Teresa Spence. One big difference is that there is widespread public support for Chief Spence in spite of the lousy job she has been doing,primarily from the left as usual.

I can see that, and also why. To my mind making a change on this scale makes demands on all of us. I`m hopeful that there will be a good result.

[Boges]

I can see that, and also why. To my mind making a change on this scale makes demands on all of us. I`m hopeful that there will be a good result.

What type of demands? More tax revenue should be taken from Canadians to fix these problems? A special First Nations Sales Tax?

[Canuckistani]

For the record,I am just as pissed off with Enron etc as I am with people like Teresa Spence.

One big difference is that there is widespread public support for Chief Spence in spite of the lousy job she has been doing,primarily from the left as usual.

Enron, what's that? Doesn't exist anymore. World Com, bankrupt.

[Michael Hardner]

I do think this sideshow has given people the motivation to do some digging and find things like damning audits and practices that show an obvious lack of accountability on the part of the band.

1. There was no digging - the government leaked the info to their propaganda arm, the CBC. Yes, I`m being facetious.

2. Lack of accountability is a condition that needs to be overcome. Carrot and stick come to mind. The Liberals arrived at such issues with a small stick and a wheelbarrow of carrots. Harper will try a different approach. Looking at the audit, it seems that things improved since 2011 so maybe there`s something to his way.

[Michael Hardner]

What type of demands? More tax revenue should be taken from Canadians to fix these problems? A special First Nations Sales Tax?

That we pay more attention, as the public, to what is going on as though there is something new happening. Maybe there will be demands for more tax revenue - I can`t say. It`s new, so I guess we`ll see. If the Harper government decides to spend more money, I`ll bet it`s because they see a way to save money later.

[Boges]

That we pay more attention, as the public, to what is going on as though there is something new happening.

Most Canadians live in cities and have met very few FN people let alone been on a reserve. I think the only exposure most people have to reserves is when they go there to get duty-free tobacco.

[Michael Hardner]

Most Canadians live in cities and have met very few FN people let alone been on a reserve. I think the only exposure most people have to reserves is when they go there to get duty-free tobacco.

Well, I realize that a lot of people don't share my view, but I think how people speak to each other about political topics matters - even casually. On the whole, it may not make an impact, but if people took political dialogue more seriously then we would be much better off.

For example, my liberal friends will likely throw Harper on the fire over this issue in casual conversation but I will point out some of the positives that may come out of this situation. Will it change a single opinion ? Likely not, but if people everywhere took off their liberal/conservative strait jackets and spoke about issues with their own minds it would open up new solutions IMO. </soapbox>

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, I realize that a lot of people don't share my view, but I think how people speak to each other about political topics matters - even casually. On the whole, it may not make an impact, but if people took political dialogue more seriously then we would be much better off.

Well, it looks like a federal judge just added a lot more FN's and Metis folk to the "political" debate as "status Indians". It's not just about the "rez" anymore.

[Spiderfish]

I said 'or mocking people'. You 'piled on' when an irresponsible person posted that they were taking money to Las Vegas. I stand by it.

I piled on to nothing. If you want to get petty and silly, I retracted the statement which was not even directly related to Ms. Spence, but to how the government deals generally with proceeds to gambling in the States. I don't even know why I'm entertaining this garbage.

Normally, while I don't always agree with your stance, I usually appreciate our interactions. Your position is usually well thought out, not self-supporting, or petty....usually.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Spiderfish

[Moonbox]

What about your responsibility to criticize them responsibly ? Do you have one ?

You deserve a big eye roll for that. Is there a sneer emoticon too?

Criticize them responsibly? That's pretty rich. Is this some sort of new standard you've developed specifically for this conversation because you've taken exception to my criticisms? My criticism goes where I feel it's deserved. In this case, I can't think of ANY valid reasons for not keep records of spending taxpayer money. I doubt you could either. If you can, please list explain them. Keep in mind, however, that you have a responsibility for responsible opinions...

[Michael Hardner]

I don't even know why I'm entertaining this garbage.

Sorry - you were the one who joined on the joke so what were you doing if not entertaining ? I'm sorry if I come across as petty - your take on that is understandable - but I do take this issue seriously, so as much as people get frustrated with FN refusal to participate in the way we want them to I get frustrated with people issuing overarching statements that aren't helpful.

But I'll take the comment about being petty.

[Michael Hardner]

Criticize them responsibly? That's pretty rich. Is this some sort of new standard you've developed specifically for this conversation because you've taken exception to my criticisms?

Absolutely not - but if there's criticism to be made, surely we can put a little thought into it. That means being specific about what we're criticizing among other things, and having some faith that things can improve. Otherwise, why should we even deal with them ? Do you see what I'm getting at ?

My criticism goes where I feel it's deserved. In this case, I can't think of ANY valid reasons for not keep records of spending taxpayer money. I doubt you could either. If you can, please list explain them.

Right - as I have stated here the reasons for not keeping proper records can be - mismanagement, ineptitude, inability, ignorance, theft. Are they valid ? Obviously not. Conservatives are usually pretty unashamed to rake the government over the coals when it comes to how they manage things, though, so let's keep a semi-open mind as to how we got here and where we want to go.

[Moonbox]

Absolutely not - but if there's criticism to be made, surely we can put a little thought into it. That means being specific about what we're criticizing among other things, and having some faith that things can improve. Otherwise, why should we even deal with them ? Do you see what I'm getting at ?

What do you mean, "why should we even deal with them?" We don't have a choice. As for your other point, why should any of us have any faith in the Attawapiskat band? This wasn't just a one-year whoopsy. This was an enormous violation of trust, a slap in the face for taxpaying Canadians and it was ongoing for years despite numerous warnings and complaints. That's bad enough, but the worst part of the problem is how the band's chief has been on a "hunger strike" for weeks now decrying her reserve's treatment at the hands of the federal government. The gall, arrogance and stupidity of this woman is appalling.

Theresa Spence:

"The federal government is neglecting us an leaving us destitute!"

Federal Government:

"Well what on Earth did you do with all that money we sent you!?"

Theresa Spence:

"Umm..We don't really know, but that's not important. What's important is that we're not getting enough money!"

That's insanity.

Right - as I have stated here the reasons for not keeping proper records can be - mismanagement, ineptitude, inability, ignorance, theft. Are they valid ? Obviously not. Conservatives are usually pretty unashamed to rake the government over the coals when it comes to how they manage things, though, so let's keep a semi-open mind as to how we got here and where we want to go.

Michael, that's a bunch of balogna. Incompetence or corruption both need to have consequences. If it was the government, there'd be charges laid and the people involved would never be re-elected (see AdScam). The First Nations already enjoy an enormous double-standard here, but clearly something needs to be done. They've proven they won't operate competently or in good faith. Now what? Not business as usual, sorry.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Moonbox

[ironstone]

Enron, what's that? Doesn't exist anymore. World Com, bankrupt.

Corrupt companies like Enron can go belly up,First Nations can't.The money will always come pouring in,billions upon billions.

[Argus]

Most Canadians live in cities and have met very few FN people let alone been on a reserve. I think the only exposure most people have to reserves is when they go there to get duty-free tobacco.

I have to say this. Every single person I know who has ever had any experience with first nations people on reserves has been left with an extremely poor impression of them. And most of the people I know are fairly liberal in their attitudes...

[Michael Hardner]

What do you mean, "why should we even deal with them?" We don't have a choice.

We could take a complete hard line and demand 3rd party management for all activities. That`s a choice.

As for your other point, why should any of us have any faith in the Attawapiskat band?

The situation has improved since 2011, for one thing. Maybe that`s the most important thing.

That's insanity.

Your playlet reflects a belief that the FN people there are beyond redemption - so I return to my first point.

Michael, that's a bunch of balogna. Incompetence or corruption both need to have consequences.

They have had consequences. And where did I say that they don`t need to have consequences ?

If it was the government, there'd be charges laid and the people involved would never be re-elected (see AdScam).

The Government isn't just elected officials. As for the elected officials, did you vote for the Liberals before AdScam ? Others did, despite the Gun Registry, and the golf course, and...

The First Nations already enjoy an enormous double-standard here, but clearly something needs to be done. They've proven they won't operate competently or in good faith. Now what? Not business as usual, sorry.

Something needs to be done, and as I said we can do our part by being precise and accurate with our criticisms, especially on MLW.

[Michael Hardner]

Corrupt companies like Enron can go belly up,First Nations can't.The money will always come pouring in,billions upon billions.

How is that relevant ? I guess it would be if someone were trying to excuse the FN leadership for mismanagement in this instance. The point is: mismanagement happens, and the taxpayer pays.

[Argus]

No I think a Hunger Strike, especially a fake one, is actually a very immature response to whatever ails the FN community. She's making it all about her and not the important issues at hand.

Remember this quote from the article cited.

He explains how Canada’s First Nations have figured out the right buttons to push to get the cheese. “When it comes to negotiations, this is what is going on. You are being hunted with all the skills of the accomplished hunter, who has been at it for countless generations. The hunter knows his prey intimately. He has learned its habits and limitations and is an excellent tracker. With an incredible gift for observation, he knows the right and most efficient way to make the kill for his particular quarry …. telling a sad story to create sympathy is the bait or the decoy … or if that doesn’t work, getting angry and threatening to scare your prey into the trap. Imitating the call or the habit of the quarry is replaced with imitating the language and practices of your adversary.”

The bad news is, whatever the Canadian state cedes, it will never be enough. “At best, you will only achieve a temporary respite,” said Mr. Burke.

[Michael Hardner]

Just a note to Mr. Burke's credentials:

Chris Burke, a Scot who has lived around Hudson and James bays for the past 45 years and who married a Cree woman.

I appreciate specifics, as I said, so quaint muskeg Scotsmen complaining about the way people are is just another sad story to me too.

[Moonbox]

We could take a complete hard line and demand 3rd party management for all activities. That`s a choice.

They tried that and it was struck down by the courts. With the audit as evidence, however, this may end up being reinstated. Given the ongoing and long-term incompetence/corruption, however, this doesn't seem like just an option. It appears necessary.

The situation has improved since 2011, for one thing. Maybe that`s the most important thing.

It's an important thing. Improving after gross incompetence and/or corruption, however, does not excuse it, and if that's what you're suggesting then you and I live in completely different worlds.

Your playlet reflects a belief that the FN people there are beyond redemption - so I return to my first point.

My playlet was a brief paraphrase of exactly what's happening right now. Theresa Spence's summary dismissal of the audit is indicative of how much she cares. It doesn't matter to her that millions of dollars are unaccounted for. Acknowledging a problem is the first step in fixing it, but Theresa and her band can't even go that far. Is this a good indication of their chances for redemption?

They have had consequences. And where did I say that they don`t need to have consequences ?

Not any meaningful consequences. The imposition of third party management was struck down. Nobody was really held responsible.

Something needs to be done, and as I said we can do our part by being precise and accurate with our criticisms, especially on MLW.

The criticism appears to be perfectly accurate. The mockery going along with it seems well-deserved. Again, I point to the irony of a First Nations Chief protesting/complaining about government neglect when her band won't prepare or keep a budget and won't/can't tell anyone where they spent money the government previously sent to them, despite numerous warning/complaints against such deficiencies. Whatever the plight of the Attawapiskat reserve, it's becoming quite clear that the band has made the situation much worse and is continuing to do so.

[Michael Hardner]

They tried that and it was struck down by the courts. With the audit as evidence, however, this may end up being reinstated. Given the ongoing and long-term incompetence/corruption, however, this doesn't seem like just an option. It appears necessary.

Although they did try it, there are other ways to take a hard line if they want to. In any case, I'm just asking you Moonbox if you think that's what should be done.

Also, to point out that the government had reinstated the co-management option prior to the court case anyway because the situation had improved. It`s in the audit - look for it in the summaries at the top.

It's an important thing. Improving after gross incompetence and/or corruption, however, does not excuse it, and if that's what you're suggesting then you and I live in completely different worlds.

Well, the government tried an approach and things improved. They could have improved more but there's a level of success there. How would you handle it differently ?

My playlet was a brief paraphrase of exactly what's happening right now.

I don't agree. The managers complied with the audit and improved to the point where the government put them back in charge of managing things.

Is this a good indication of their chances for redemption?

? Right - exactly what I said - you believe them to be beyond redemption.

Not any meaningful consequences. The imposition of third party management was struck down. Nobody was really held responsible.

It was struck down after the Government put the original management team back in place in April.

The criticism appears to be perfectly accurate. The mockery going along with it seems well-deserved.

I don`t think so. There are details missing, and a lack of end-game in your approach. Let`s summarize:

You think the FN can`t manage itself.

The improvements that happen aren`t enough to be acknowledged.

You think they there needs to be more meaningful consequences for what they have done so far.

Is that fair ? Ok - so what then ? What do you think should be done next ?

[ironstone]

How is that relevant ? I guess it would be if someone were trying to excuse the FN leadership for mismanagement in this instance. The point is: mismanagement happens, and the taxpayer pays.

What do you mean it might be relevant if someone were trying to excuse the FN leadership for mismanagement?That is EXACTLY what the Teresa Spence supporters are doing!How can anyone with an ounce of intelligence look at the results of this audit and not admit that there is something horribly wrong here?