T.O.'s food truck follies

[Black Dog]

For the past couple of years, a number of entrepreneurs have been trying to bring a real street food scene to Toronto that goes beyond the ubiquitous grubby hot dog vendor and is closer to what other cities like Portland, San Fransisco and even Vancouver have created. Unfortunately they are facing a pigheaded bureaucracy and draconian bylaws that are threatening to strangle the scene in its crib. This week, City Hall fobbed a set of recommendations off onto staff, meaning more delays and thousands of dollars in lost revenue for those who have already invested money into their mobile businesses. Worst of all is the hypocritical bleating from the restaurant lobby.

Restaurateur Steve Mastoras showed the licensing committee a copy of his $60,000 property tax bill for his Whistler’s Grille on Broadview Ave.

Mastoras also rhymed off the cost of electricity, water, gas and other items in arguing that low-overhead food trucks represent unfair competition.

“Respect the taxpayer,” Mastoras said, repeating Mayor Rob Ford’s campaign slogan.

“There are thousands of taxpaying operators in the city that I guarantee you will fill these committee rooms and council chambers if and when you somehow unilaterally allow food trucks to swarm our streets,” he said.

Aside from paying property taxes, bricks and mortar restaurants sponsor sports teams, support schools and participate in local beautification projects, said Debra DeMonte of The Longest Yard restaurant.

“I believe there’s a place for food trucks but any truck in competition with a bricks-and-mortar restaurant is simply unfair competition,” DeMonte said. “It has to be a level playing field.”

Memo to whingers: competition is good. If you can't compete, you should find a new line of work and not ask the government to intercede on your behalf.

[Shady]

For the past couple of years, a number of entrepreneurs have been trying to bring a real street food scene to Toronto that goes beyond the ubiquitous grubby hot dog vendor and is closer to what other cities like Portland, San Fransisco and even Vancouver have created. Unfortunately they are facing a pigheaded bureaucracy and draconian bylaws that are threatening to strangle the scene in its crib. This week, City Hall fobbed a set of recommendations off onto staff, meaning more delays and thousands of dollars in lost revenue for those who have already invested money into their mobile businesses. Worst of all is the hypocritical bleating from the restaurant lobby.

Memo to whingers: competition is good. If you can't compete, you should find a new line of work and not ask the government to intercede on your behalf.

Is whingers a restaurant?

[Shakeyhands]

I agree BD, if the restauranteers are concerned at losing business to these trucks they should inwards first.

[Boges]

I really don't understand the appeal of eating exotic food off the back of the truck.

If I want food on the go, it it wise to buy a soy burrito on a bed of basmati rice.

But that's just me. The fact that these food trucks aren't allowed makes Toronto look pretty 2nd rate.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Boges

[Black Dog]

I really don't understand the appeal of eating exotic food off the back of the truck.

If I want food on the go, it it wise to buy a soy burrito on a bed of basmati rice.

Sure, why not?

[Boges]

I've seen that show Eat St. sometimes. The food they make on that show looks really good. So good I'd rather eat it in a restaurant.

[August1991]

I disagree, BD. Retail: Location, location, location.

Memo to whingers: competition is good. If you can't compete, you should find a new line of work and not ask the government to intercede on your behalf.

I'm with this guy, Steve Mastoras (?).

Somebody has to pay the taxes to pay for the cement under the feet of a street side seller. Even more, somebody should pay rent for the valuable location of a hotdog stand at, for example, Yonge and Bloor. (I have always been curious to know how street vendors in Times Square decided location. I once asked a black African selling tourist crap in front of the Obelisk who decided location and he just shrugged his shoulders. The last time I was in Paris, they were all gone.)

I reckon local mafia/gangs use muscle to collect "rent" from sidewalk vendors.

[guyser]

I'm with this guy, Steve Mastoras (?).

How about being sympathetic but not in his court?

Somebody has to pay the taxes to pay for the cement under the feet of a street side seller. Even more, somebody should pay rent for the valuable location of a hotdog stand at, for example, Yonge and Bloor. (I have always been curious to know how street vendors in Times Square decided location. I once asked a black African selling tourist crap in front of the Obelisk who decided location and he just shrugged his shoulders. The last time I was in Paris, they were all gone.)

I reckon local mafia/gangs use muscle to collect "rent" from sidewalk vendors.

The guy has a very good point however, his location and the location of the others in the article are not or rather should not be worried by the vendors. The locations of said are not conducive to street food and the walk up traffic would not be enough to get a vendor to come set up.

He does pay high bus tax and I see his point, however, he fails to take into account that the vendors not only go through a rigorous programme, they spend about half his tax bill ($30Gs) getting health inspections (vendors pay for it) safety inspections ($$$) and location expenses (rent to the city) for the spots.

August , locations are done via either lottery or the person had a long history at the site thus was granted the spot. That said, there is a long running feud amongst hot dog venors about spots and fees paid.

My concern is more with another spot in town. All these vendors, be it hot dog or otherwise all have to go through city channels for health, safety inspections, car inspections etc.

But if you have a store on Spadina in Chinatown, why you just set up outside and sell goods (food etc) there. No water, no sanitizer, no health inspection (all mandatory for vendors) nada. Blatantly unfair

The local mafia/gangs are referred to as City Hall and its inspectors

[Black Dog]

I disagree, BD. Retail: Location, location, location.

I'm with this guy, Steve Mastoras (?).

Somebody has to pay the taxes to pay for the cement under the feet of a street side seller. Even more, somebody should pay rent for the valuable location of a hotdog stand at, for example, Yonge and Bloor.

We're not talking about hot dog stands.

[Black Dog]

I've seen that show Eat St. sometimes. The food they make on that show looks really good. So good I'd rather eat it in a restaurant.

Food truck fare is prepared in real professional kitchens and finished off on-site. There's no difference really between the stuff you get out of a food truck and what you;d get in a restaurant.

[PIK]

Put all your time, money and energy to build up a good business and then someone opens up a food truck outside your door. I would be pissed.

[Boges]

Food truck fare is prepared in real professional kitchens and finished off on-site. There's no difference really between the stuff you get out of a food truck and what you;d get in a restaurant.

That's what the bureaucrats in Toronto want, which is probably why the food truck program failed. It's expensive doing all the prep at another location if it has to be a commercial kitchen.

I don't see any evidence of the food being pre-done offsite on any show I watch dealing with food trucks in America.

There's a show on Fox called Master Chef that did a Food Truck episode this week and everything was prepped cooked in the truck.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Boges

[bleeding heart]

Put all your time, money and energy to build up a good business and then someone opens up a food truck outside your door. I would be pissed.

Yes, most self-styled "capitalists" despise an actual free market. They prefer semi-monopolies protected by taxpayer dollars. So do their intellectual defenders, under some guise of...wait for it!..."free market theory."

[Black Dog]

Put all your time, money and energy to build up a good business and then someone opens up a food truck outside your door. I would be pissed.

Because food trucks don't require time, money or energy?

Also what's the difference between having a food truck open up in front versus another restaurant across the street? It's called competition and its part of business.

[Black Dog]

That's what the bureaucrats in Toronto want, which is probably why the food truck program failed. It's expensive doing all the prep at another location if it has to be a commercial kitchen.

I don't see any evidence of the food being pre-done offsite on any show I watch dealing with food trucks in America.

There's a show on Fox called Master Chef that did a Food Truck episode this week and everything was prepped cooked in the truck.

There was no food truck program here. You're thinking perhaps of the "A la Cart" program which was a total disaster for reasons I won't get into here. As to the prep, that's my understanding based on what I've heard from people involved with some of these businesses. That's something that should probably change.

[guyser]

Because food trucks don't require time, money or energy?

Also what's the difference between having a food truck open up in front versus another restaurant across the street? It's called competition and its part of business.

There are differences that matter to some of the bricks and mortar joints. Even though I want more street food, it should be where there isnt much else available or readily available.

Things like...

-prop tax

-accessibility for disabled.

-washrooms

It seems minor, but those costs above are huge

[Black Dog]

There are differences that matter to some of the bricks and mortar joints.

Things like...

-prop tax

-accessibility for disabled.

-washrooms

It seems minor, but those costs above are huge

And I say: so? Food truck operators have different costs associated with their operation (upkeep, fuel, parking) that bricks and mortar joints don't. They also don't have many of the advantages bricks and mortar places have to compensate for lower costs.

Finally, none of this stuff matters to the customer, which is where this battle is really being played out.

Even though I want more street food, it should be where there isnt much else available or readily available.

They should go where there's a demand. Period.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Black Dog

[guyser]

And I say: so?

I say because a resto in downtown toronto has to pay very high prop tax on his business, and the truck does not , even though they may share the same relative location. But I will say that is rare. One is not likely to find a food truck in resataurant hotspots or upscale locations.

Fuel would be minor vs heating and AC costs the brick joint has.And I concede that is for the comfort of the patron inside so maybe cannot be compared.

I agree this plays out for the patron, but I can understand the complaint from the brick and mortar joints.

Plenty of demand , but there are plenty of places where demand cannot be met due to contracts already in place, exclusives and the whatnot.

[Black Dog]

I say because a resto in downtown toronto has to pay very high prop tax on his business, and the truck does not , even though they may share the same relative location. But I will say that is rare. One is not likely to find a food truck in resataurant hotspots or upscale locations.

Fuel would be minor vs heating and AC costs the brick joint has.And I concede that is for the comfort of the patron inside so maybe cannot be compared.

I agree this plays out for the patron, but I can understand the complaint from the brick and mortar joints.

But there are trade offs for food trucks as well, as I've pointed out. It's apples and oranges, really. The complaint that certain advantages implicit in the mode of delivery is understandable, but it's not a question of policy. It would be like a pizza joint that doesn't deliver asking that its competitors not be allowed to.

Plenty of demand , but there are plenty of places where demand cannot be met due to contracts already in place, exclusives and the whatnot.

Sure, but i don't see the point of the state dictating where they can and can't go. The states only concerns here are: is the food safe? Are the workers? Are they paying their licensing fees? Things of taht nature.

[The_Squid]

I don't live in Toronto. Vancouver recently allowed a significant increase in food trucks. We have some in my town.

I don't mind food truck in the least. However, I do have sympathy for restaurant owners as well. Although, how much does a food truck interfere with a restaurant? Maybe with fast food places, but probably not so much with nicer establishments where customers expect to sit down, have a drink, etc.

There are possible compromises... food trucks can be located in areas that are less likely to interfere with restaurants; parks or public squares for example. Any city that allows food trucks to interfere with bricks/mortar restaurants are going to find a drop in tax revenue since we know that a building would pay a lot more property taxes than a truck would ever pay in fees. This would be foolish.

[The_Squid]

Sure, but i don't see the point of the state dictating where they can and can't go. The states only concerns here are: is the food safe? Are the workers? Are they paying their licensing fees? Things of taht nature.

I disagree. The city has an interest in keeping restaurants viable, since they pay a significant amount of property taxes/fees compared to a truck. They also employ a lot more people, probably with higher wages.

Allowing food trucks to compete with restaurants (if this happens) would be foolish. They would be shooting their city in the foot with respect to tax revenue!

[guyser]

Sure, but i don't see the point of the state dictating where they can and can't go. The states only concerns here are: is the food safe? Are the workers? Are they paying their licensing fees? Things of taht nature.

They do in vicarious ways.

No stopping or parking zones do it for the most part. So that negates almost every major street in TO. It does not however encompass City Hall on the southside where they allow it, down near Hraborfront where same is allowed., but you can be sure they dont allow it in the BEaches due to proprietary contracts with Vendors already set up (bricks/mortar ones)

[Black Dog]

I disagree. The city has an interest in keeping restaurants viable, since they pay a significant amount of property taxes/fees compared to a truck. They also employ a lot more people, probably with higher wages.

Allowing food trucks to compete with restaurants (if this happens) would be foolish. They would be shooting their city in the foot with respect to tax revenue!

Only if food trucks were an actual threat to bricks and mortar restaurants. They aren't.

[August1991]

Only if food trucks were an actual threat to bricks and mortar restaurants. They aren't.

Huh? And you know this because you are in the resto business?

How is a McDo Drive-Thru different from a food truck?

The states only concerns here are: is the food safe? Are the workers? Are they paying their licensing fees? Things of taht nature.

And property taxes.

[guyser]

How is a McDo Drive-Thru different from a food truck?

The wheels on a McD drive in are square. The canteen's are round.

And property taxes.

Thats a concern for the bricks and mortar crowd, not the local govt. A truck is not property in that sense, so no being able to charge.