cybercoma Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 All workers deemed non essential have the right to bargain collectively.No. All workers have the right to bargain collectively. Not all workers can go on strike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowtraveller Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 I'm sure pilots are easy to replace. Not a big problem, US airlines have been in turmoil for decades, many pilots laid off there and many earning much less than what Air Canada pays.They could staff quickly and relatively easily. Thanks for raising this option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 Not a big problem, US airlines have been in turmoil for decades, many pilots laid off there and many earning much less than what Air Canada pays. They could staff quickly and relatively easily. Thanks for raising this option. Good luck with that! The authoritarians just keep threatening with punishment and force ... because they have no clue about human relations, only power. They are incapable of negotiating the real world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 No. All workers have the right to bargain collectively. Not all workers can go on strike. Don't they have to certify some kind of organization first ? It's not as simple as just approaching the employer and saying "we have the right to bargain on behalf of the collective". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 Don't they have to certify some kind of organization first ? It's not as simple as just approaching the employer and saying "we have the right to bargain on behalf of the collective". Yes... Organzation usually comes after a successful vote to unionize... Then a contract is negotiated... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowtraveller Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 The authoritarians just keep threatening with punishment and force ... because they have no clue about human relations, only power. They are incapable of negotiating the real world. "Authoritarians" Do you mean the unions trying to bully the owners of the company with punishment, force them into agreements they cannot afford?Yet you get all pissy when the people paying the bills push back.... typical. You are dreaming if you don't think union action is not all about control and power......that too is part of negotiation. Where the unions totally f**k up is failing to recognize the strength and weakness of their own situation. They've been used to corps just rolling over, when one pushes back they get as hysterical as you. CAW is an example of one union that cannot recognize the situation they are in, although it is in significant part one of their own creation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 "Authoritarians" Do you mean the unions trying to bully the owners of the company with punishment, force them into agreements they cannot afford? Yet you get all pissy when the people paying the bills push back.... typical. You are dreaming if you don't think union action is not all about control and power......that too is part of negotiation. Where the unions totally f**k up is failing to recognize the strength and weakness of their own situation. They've been used to corps just rolling over, when one pushes back they get as hysterical as you. CAW is an example of one union that cannot recognize the situation they are in, although it is in significant part one of their own creation. Those poor corporations with the power of a lock out? Like the one they were prepared to used in the Air Canada situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 Or the lockout used by Canada Post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWTT Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 Welcome to the wonderful world of openly siding with management,government sponsored,antagonistic labour relations.... Which in my opinion when the government does so it is unconstitutional! I hope the pilots are successfull with their court actions! WWWTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 If only canadian was still flying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted March 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 So baggage handlers went on a Wildcat strike today. http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1150769--air-canada-ground-crews-stage-wildcat-strike-at-toronto-s-pearson-airport?bn=1 You know all these AC workers are looking for more money. How do the venture they'll get it when people stop flying AC because they don't trust that their flight will leave on time because of some sort of work action? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) So baggage handlers went on a Wildcat strike today. http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1150769--air-canada-ground-crews-stage-wildcat-strike-at-toronto-s-pearson-airport?bn=1 You know all these AC workers are looking for more money. How do the venture they'll get it when people stop flying AC because they don't trust that their flight will leave on time because of some sort of work action? Some people don't have a choice. Besides, why blame the workers? It's the company that's not negotiating in good faith. Perhaps if they came to the table, instead of threatening lockouts and getting Harper's union-busting government to give them a decided advantage, there wouldn't be these kinds of labour actions. This is a direct result of the Conservatives. They caused these delays with their interference in the bargaining process. Edited March 23, 2012 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) These workers re putting the jobs of everyone at the airline in jeopardy. I can fly almost anywhere I want to go without Air Canada. I'll have to do that now, I guess, because Air Canada is far too dangerous to book, not because of the company, but because of the union. Quite frankly, I'm not sure what the union wants. Air Canada isn't a profitable company at the moment. If everyone involved doesn't make concessions, there won't be a company for any of them to work at. Air travellers would suffer also, because of a lack of competition. No one wins from job action at this point, legal or illegal. Edited March 23, 2012 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilter Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 http://www.newstalk1010.com/News/localnews/blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10361084 In what line of work is fatigue and street a viable reason to call in sick for work? This is clearly a work action because of the Federal government won't allow them to strike. I wonder if there'll consequence for the actions of these pilots? 19 cancelled flights is exactly the type of thing the Feds are trying to prevent. I guess the answer to your question In what line of work is fatigue and street a viable reason to call in sick for work? would be the type of work where fatigue could cause you to be compressed into a 1/2" slab of dead meat along with another 6 co-workers and 350 people who were relying on you to deliver them & the 300 foot long projectile you are guiding safely to the planned destination. The pilots of commercial passenger A/C are limited to about 64 hours flying PER MONTH to avoid fatigue (and coincidentally accidents & death) to personnel & passengers, Along with the hours in the air consider that for each of these hours, an equal amount of time is spent preparing for & reporting the conclusion of those hours. Now you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Quite frankly, I'm not sure what the union wants. Air Canada isn't a profitable company at the moment. If everyone involved doesn't make concessions, there won't be a company for any of them to work at. Air travellers would suffer also, because of a lack of competition. No one wins from job action at this point, legal or illegal. Smallc, you are being too rational! Unions virtually always assume the company HAS to be there! It may appear unprofitable but this is just a scam, a negotiating tactic. Companies are always rich and the only reason they refuse to meet worker demands is because they are mean-spirited and nasty! If Air Canada were to go out of business and all those jobs are lost the union would just dismiss it as a conspiracy. They might also blame Harper for being too stingy in not bailing Air Canada out with sufficient corporate welfare. Myself, I don't fly much anymore but there are always lots of airlines. If Air Canada goes bust I really couldn't care. If Air Canada got bailed out with our tax money I WOULD be upset! I see nothing so special about Air Canada as to deserve that. Edited March 23, 2012 by Wild Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 While we are talking about greed. Air Canada heads for arbitration while ACE Aviation set to shell out millionsBy: Ross Marowits, The Canadian Press Posted: 03/13/2012 2:00 PM Last Modified: 03/13/2012 4:05 PM MONTREAL - As Air Canada heads for arbitration hoping to further cut costs, the company formed following the airline's court-supervised restructuring is preparing to shell out millions more to investors before finally winding down. ACE Aviation Holdings, once Air Canada's largest shareholder, plans to distribute up to $300 million to shareholders following an April vote to approve the company's liquidation. The Montreal-based company formed in 2004 said Tuesday that it plans an initial distribution of $250 million to $300 million in the weeks following the April 25 shareholder vote, according to a proxy circular sent to investors. A final distribution is expected after mid-2013. Between 2004 and 2011, ACE (TSX:ACE. returned $4.5 billion to shareholders from the sale of its equity interests in Air Canada's former operations. ACE has sold most of its assets — including the companies now known as Chorus Aviation (TSX:CHR., which operates the Jazz air service;, loyalty program Aeroplan or Aimia (TSX:AER) and Aveos, which overhauls aircraft — and distributed the bulk of the money to shareholders. "The liquidation of ACE is the logical and consistent concluding step in the execution of this strategy through the distribution of the remaining net assets of ACE to its shareholders," ACE Aviation chief executive Robert Milton said in a letter accompanying the proxy circular. Labour leaders who are fighting for new collective agreements and stem the launch of a new low-cost carrier said Air Canada's financial woes have resulted from the stripping of the carrier's value by ACE Aviation. "This was just an opportunistic asset play by vulture capital," said Capt. Paul Strachan, president of the Air Canada Pilots Association. The pilots' union and machinists are the last two groups with which Air Canada needs to reach an agreement. Strachan said ACE's efforts paid the airline a pittance of its market value while forcing it into agreements that bleed revenue to the former subsidiaries and made workers agree to massive concessions. "It has been a very, very frustrating and demoralizing experience for Air Canada employees at large and pilots in particular," he said in an interview. Particularly galling is that Air Canada CEO Calin Rovinescu stands to receive a $5-million retention bonus next month after just three years at the helm, Strachan added. Milton also collected some $80 million over his tenure at both companies even though Air Canada has not been consistently profitable. Milton has said the formation of ACE would allow the intrinsic value of Air Canada (TSX:AC. to surface beyond what was recognized by investors. The union representing mechanics, baggage handlers and other ground crew at Air Canada said the federal government's decision to impose arbitration on its talks with the airline is eroding labour rights. "This will undermine free collective bargaining and poison labour relations across Canada," said Dave Ritchie, Canadian general vice-president of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers. Citing a need to protect the economy, Labour Minister Lisa Raitt proposed back-to-work legislation on Monday that would send the airline's disputes with the two labour groups to binding arbitration. Under the "final offer selection" arbitration process, the unions and airline will both put forward their best offer and an arbitrator will pick one. "Final offer selection does not allow the arbitrator to take into consideration any one item for which it would make sense to change on either side's behalf," Ritchie said. Strachan added that the government's legislation is "blatantly slanted in favour the corporation's position." But the minister said the federal government is not taking sides in the dispute by initiating final offer arbitration. "Who's to say that the arbitrator is not going to pick the union's point of view?" Raitt asked rhetorically at a news conference. "They have fair ball at the table." Flights at Air Canada were set to stop this week after the airline said it would lock out its pilots and the machinists union said it would strike in the midst of the key spring holiday season. However Raitt stepped in and blocked a work stoppage by referring the matter to the Canada Industrial Relations Board. ACE's main assets are $351 million or cash and equivalents, 31 million Class B voting shares in Air Canada (TSX:AC. and warrants to purchase Air Canada shares. Shareholders will also vote on proposals to convert ACE class A shares, which are reserved for non-Canadian residents, and class aB shares into one voting class. Since ACE no longer holds a significant interest in any holder of a licence under the Canada Transportation Act, the company said the dual class structure is no longer necessary to meet Canadian rules for foreign ownership of airlines. Support from two-thirds of shareholders is also required for a voluntary liquidation of the holding company. Meanwhile, ACE said Milton earned $441,232 in consulting fees and airline travel allowance in 2011, compared with $525,000 in 2010. The former chief executive of Air Canada received $14.7 million in 2009. The amount included $13.9 million in the form of $5 million incentive award as part of his employment contract and stock options in lieu of severance and retirement benefits. And you wonder why the employees are pissed. They haven't had a raise since the late nineties while management have made out like bandits running an company that has never made money since. All the cutbacks employees took during CCAA went directly into the pockets of ACE shareholders (Cerberus, GE Capital, Deutsche Bank etc) and upper management. Milton that great Canadian who flaunted his new citizenship during the merger battles now lives in London. Wonder if he has British citizenship yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Just like Blue Star in Oliver Stone's film Wall Street (1987). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stopstaaron Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Most Canadians are going into the US now and flying from there, saving A LOT of money that way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 That doesn't change the reality of the current situation, not just for Air Canada, but across the industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Most Canadians are going into the US now and flying from there, saving A LOT of money that way Most? Not even close. It only saves money when flying between two US points, anyway. Sometimes it saves money, and sometimes it doesn't. Often, the price difference involved is mostly a result of the US taxes that you pay when you cross the border by air. Edited March 23, 2012 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stopstaaron Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I shouldn't have said most. The number is 18% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) I shouldn't have said most. The number is 18% 18% of people flying to US destinations. Edited March 23, 2012 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stopstaaron Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 18% of people flying to US destinations. I found this article http://m.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/canadians-flocking-to-us-airports-in-search-of-cheap-fares/article2375888/?service=mobile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 That doesn't change the reality of the current situation, not just for Air Canada, but across the industry. It doesn't, but management is now reaping the results of its own greed. Why should the employees have any confidence in management that has made its primary objective filling its own pockets? They see the present situation as a continuation of a slide to the bottom. If management compensation is to be based on a bullshit parameter like EBITDA regardless of the bottom line, why shouldn't the employee's? While I would have supported them if they had, I am so freaking glad neither of my kids wanted to follow their old man into aviation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I found this article That says about 18% of US bound passengers, if you do the adjustments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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