Firing offense?

[dre]

I'm confused about where you stand, CC. I do understand your support for the union folks. However, are you denying that ridership may or will suffer? Do you believe that no significant number of passengers will decide not to fly Air Canada anymore?

Maybe that's true. Maybe all those folks stuck in the Pearson terminals are saying "Gee, this is a big pissoff but still, I can see it's all the fault of the government sticking their nose in! I'm on the side of the union and will cheerfully accept all this aggravation in order to support them!"

I really don't know how much business Air Canada will lose. Or can afford to lose, for that matter. It would seem that both the union and the management are playing a risky game. Obviously, they either consider their passenger reactions to be irrelevant or not serious enough to sink the whole ship.

You've made your support for the union plain, CC. I'm just curious what you think about repercussions to the entire picture. Maybe folks like me, who would resent being caught up as cannon fodder and would never fly Air Canada again are just a trivial minority. There are brand name stores that I have refused to enter since I was a teenager, because of the way I was treated.

But that's just me!

Obviously the collective bargaining process can disrupt the lives of workers, and the smooth operation of companies. But its still the best process available to see that the interests of both sides are considered, and it effects working conditions and wages in both union and non union shops.

[Wild Bill]

Obviously the collective bargaining process can disrupt the lives of workers, and the smooth operation of companies. But its still the best process available to see that the interests of both sides are considered, and it effects working conditions and wages in both union and non union shops.

I'm not saying it isn't, my good Doctor! However, that doesn't change the fact that the market or rather the public who use airlines will have their own feelings on the matter and will make their own choices.

Too often management and labour take their customers for granted. Then if the customers vote with their feet they point fingers at each other as the bankruptcy accountants move in!

[Wild Bill]

Actually, we don't. We have too much labour with the wrong skills. In the west, and even in parts of the east, there is a labour shortage.

I stand corrected. That's a good point and worthy of a thread of its own. Why is this so? What about all those government studies, career counselors in high schools, retraining programs and the like? If they all knew what they were doing then why has this situation occurred?

[Smallc]

Companies don't go bust because of their employees.

They do if the employees strike, legally or illegally, and that negatively affects revenue. Make no mistake, Air Canada is on the edge. It probably won't take much to push it over.

Air Canada needs to be freed from The Air Canada Act, too.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Smallc

[dre]

I stand corrected. That's a good point and worthy of a thread of its own. Why is this so? What about all those government studies, career counselors in high schools, retraining programs and the like? If they all knew what they were doing then why has this situation occurred?

Because companies can buy labor for well under 1 dollar per hour in much of the world, and facility costs, and operations costs are much higher here as well. They hate us for wanting decent lives.

[Smallc]

I stand corrected. That's a good point and worthy of a thread of its own. Why is this so? What about all those government studies, career counselors in high schools, retraining programs and the like? If they all knew what they were doing then why has this situation occurred?

There still exists a mindset (although it's starting to change - especially out here) that you have to go to university. I certainly fell victim to it. Make no mistake, university is useful for many fields, and also as an incubator of general knowledge, but not everyone belongs there, and not everyone needs to go there. The high pay in the trades right now is starting to get people to realize where some of them should be going, but it's a slow process.

[Boges]

I stand corrected. That's a good point and worthy of a thread of its own. Why is this so? What about all those government studies, career counselors in high schools, retraining programs and the like? If they all knew what they were doing then why has this situation occurred?

Because Trades aren't valued very much in High Schools.

It's one of my great laments that I wasn't told in my teenage days that these careers would be recession proof. Now I stand here in my early 30's in an industry that I probably won't be able to stay in in the next few years.

Depressing.

[Wilber]

They do if the employees strike, legally or illegally, and that negatively affects revenue. Make no mistake, Air Canada is on the edge. It probably won't take much to push it over.

Air Canada needs to be freed from The Air Canada Act, too.

Responsibility for strikes lie just as much with companies as it does with employees. BTW, I seem to recall that the government became involved when Air Canada declared it was going to lock out the pilots and not because the pilots gave a strike deadline.

[Smallc]

Responsibility for strikes lie just as much with companies as it does with employees. BTW, I seem to recall that the government became involved when Air Canada declared it was going to lock out the pilots and not because the pilots gave a strike deadline.

Air Canada was trying to bring this to a close so it would stop affecting revenue. They knew that the government would introduce back to work legislation. The reality is that the airline business is cut throat and low margin. Every little bit counts. Employees either have to deal with that, or find new jobs.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Smallc

[Wilber]

Air Canada was trying to bring this to a close so it would stop affecting revenue. They knew that the government would introduce back to work legislation. The reality is that the airline business is cut throat and low margin. Every little bit counts. Employees either have to deal with that, or find new jobs.

They were trying to force closure using the government to do it and it worked. Easy peasy except you can never rely on the actions of pissed off individuals. BTW, Calin received a 5 million retention bonus on March 31. For the life of me I can't understand why they didn't make it a day later. It's only cut throat and low margin for some. Leading by example is no longer a credible doctrine. Grab what you can and screw the other guy is.

[Smallc]

It's only cut throat and low margin for some.

No, it is for everyone. Quality CEOs, in this market, get paid a great deal of money. Without Calin, Air Canada probably would have been in bankruptcy protection in 2009. He's done a good job. If they want to keep him, they have to pay. Pilots, on the other hand, are a dime a dozen. It's the reality of the world.

[Wild Bill]

There still exists a mindset (although it's starting to change - especially out here) that you have to go to university. I certainly fell victim to it. Make no mistake, university is useful for many fields, and also as an incubator of general knowledge, but not everyone belongs there, and not everyone needs to go there. The high pay in the trades right now is starting to get people to realize where some of them should be going, but it's a slow process.

<sigh> Yeah, sadly you're right about that mindset. I'm not sure if it came from the teachers or if the teachers just reflected the feelings of the general public but the effect can't be denied.

As for people wising up being a slow process, that always seems to be the way. Another example of how we think we are competent generals because we are perfectly prepared for the LAST war!

And another Poland will send out cavalry against Hitler's tanks...

[Wilber]

No, it is for everyone. Quality CEOs, in this market, get paid a great deal of money. Without Calin, Air Canada probably would have been in bankruptcy protection in 2009. He's done a good job. If they want to keep him, they have to pay. Pilots, on the other hand, are a dime a dozen. It's the reality of the world.

Not saying he hasn't done a good job but it is your assumption that he is the only one who has that bugs me. The rest of the employees have been doing more for and with less. He hasn't. He is just an employee to.

If front line employees have no value in your book, what does it matter to you that they go to work pissed because of being walked on by company and government?

Really, try and replace 1500 or so experienced air transport rated pilots at the drop of a hat. Even if you could find them in Canada, it would take at least 3 months to train them on type, assuming you could find enough instructors to do them all at once and god knows how long to line up enough simulator time to do the job. Years likely and very expensive. But I guess you would be cool jumping on a B777 to Shanghai captained by a 25 year old who had been flying twin Otters in the Arctic six months prior.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Wilber

[Smallc]

Not saying he hasn't done a good job but it is your assumption that he is the only one who has that bugs me. The rest of the employees have been doing more for and with less. He hasn't. He is just an employee to.

That's not what I said. But there is a difference between front line employees and the CEO...at least that's how things are structured.

If front line employees have no value in your book, what does it matter to you that they go to work pissed because of being walked on by company and government?

Really, try and replace 1500 or so experienced air transport rated pilots at the drop of a hat. Even if you could find them in Canada, it would take at least 3 months to train them on type, assuming you could find enough instructors and god knows how long to line up enough simulator time to do the job. Years likely and very expensive. But I guess you would be cool jumping on a B777 to Shanghai captained by a 25 year old who had been flying twin Otters in the Arctic six months prior.

They wouldn't have to replace all of them at once, and you know that.

Look, Cerberus eviscerated Air Canada, ruining things for both the company, and the union. They now both have to live with that. They should be working together to make air Canada more competitive, not sparing.

[Wilber]

Look, Cerberus eviscerated Air Canada, ruining things for both the company, and the union. They now both have to live with that. They should be working together to make air Canada more competitive, not sparing.

You seem to forget that Calin was the Chief Restructuring Officer during CCAA.

Together is the operative word, that doesn't mean doing everything the company's way.

Calin taking multi million dollar bonuses running a money losing company while demanding the other employees take cuts to make it work is not working together in my book.

[Smallc]

Calin taking multi million dollar bonuses running a money losing company while demanding the other employees take cuts to make it work is not working together in my book.

The company is the one that has to survive for everyone to keep their jobs. This time, doing it the company's way, is pretty much the only way. I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. Air Canada needs the low cost airline they're so desperately seeking.

As for his time with Air Canada previously, Calin had a restructuring agency and shareholders to answer to. He doesn't get to make all of the decisions.

[Wilber]

The company is the one that has to survive for everyone to keep their jobs. This time, doing it the company's way, is pretty much the only way. I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. Air Canada needs the low cost airline they're so desperately seeking.

So, it is part of the employees responsibility to see the company survive. It would be nice if you could give them some credit.

As for his time with Air Canada previously, Calin had a restructuring agency and shareholders to answer to. He doesn't get to make all of the decisions.

I know he wasn't technically part of ACE but he was Milty's and ACE's man at Air Canada.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Wilber

[Smallc]

So, it is part of the employees responsibility to see the company survive. It would be nice if you could give them some credit.

Credit for what? So far, they're been difficult, and have caused nothing but problems. I'd give them credit if they'd actually understand that they're fighting the wrong battle, and stop flighting it.

I know he wasn't technically part of ACE but he was Milty's and ACE's man at Air Canada.

And, now it's his job to ensure the company's survival. He'll do the best to do that, just as he did the best to do what he was tasked to previously.

[Wilber]

Credit for what? So far, they're been difficult, and have caused nothing but problems. I'd give them credit if they'd actually understand that they're fighting the wrong battle, and stop flighting it.

And, now it's his job to ensure the company's survival. He'll do the best to do that, just as he did the best to do what he was tasked to previously.

They have been put in this position because of a corporate greed that raped a company, not because they have been difficult.

Lets cut this crap then about working together. It's a fairy tale. It's the company's way or the highway.

[Smallc]

They have been put in this position because of a corporate greed that raped a company, not because they have been difficult.

That's right, that happened, and now everyone has to live with it. No strike in the world will undo what Cerberus did to Air Canada.

Lets cut this crap then about working together. It's a fairy tale. It's the company's way or the highway.

Not necessarily. The unions won't even give Air Canada their signature and most important initiative in this round. They can talk about salaries, hours, compensation, but the low cost airline is a necessity if they hope to compete.

[dre]

That's right, that happened, and now everyone has to live with it. No strike in the world will undo what Cerberus did to Air Canada.

Not necessarily. The unions won't even give Air Canada their signature and most important initiative in this round. They can talk about salaries, hours, compensation, but the low cost airline is a necessity if they hope to compete.

If you want low cost you need to start at the top, not the bottom.

Id fired layers of management from the top down until the planes stopped flying, and then Id hire the last level back, and the company would be fixed.

BTW... Pilots as a group are notoriously underpaid already... for whatever reason our society places really low value on these people even though we put our lives in their hands, and its a high pressure job.

Next time you are flying on a major airline, contemplate the fact that the guy flying your plane is quite likely making between 20 and 40 thousand per year. A lot of these guys are making less than a laborer on a constuction site.

Edited April 13, 2012 by dre

[Smallc]

If you want low cost you need to start at the top, not the bottom.

You do everything at the same time.

Id fired layers of management from the top down until the planes stopped flying, and then Id hire the last level back, and the company would be fixed.

BTW... Pilots as a group are notoriously underpaid already... for whatever reason our society places really low value on these people even though we put our lives in their hands, and its a high pressure job.

Canadian pilots are still relatively well paid. I'm not even advocating for a pay cut though, and neither was Air Canada.

Next time you are flying on a major airline, contemplate the fact that the guy flying your plane is quite likely making between 20 and 40 thousand per year.

On a regional airline, yes. On Air Canada or Westjet themselves? Probably not.

[cybercoma]

And what if there's no Air Canada to return to?

Same could be said "and what if nobody wanted to work for you?" They both rely on each other. The problem, and you acknowledged it in one of your subsequent posts, is that the government unfairly got involved in the negotiation process, throwing it out of balance. These kinds of labour strikes and disruptions are supposed to be a reminder to management the vital role that labour plays. If the margins are so razor thin that they can't afford the labour they need to operate their businesses, then there's something wrong with how they're running their businesses. The management is never put under the microscope though. Again, the easy and lazy way to make more money is to go after your labour.

Oh and if Air Canada packed up shop, another company would have to fill the void because there would be a huge demand for it.

Edited April 13, 2012 by cybercoma

[dre]

You do everything at the same time.

Canadian pilots are still relatively well paid. I'm not even advocating for a pay cut though, and neither was Air Canada.

On a regional airline, yes. On Air Canada or Westjet themselves? Probably not.

Laugh all you want, but this is the Asian model, and its also exactly what venture capitalists do with a lot of the companies they buy. North America is famous for extremely bloated and expensive management. Often theres 5 or 10 guys shuffling paper for each one guy who actually builds widgets.

If you fire the top management layer and the company keeps delivering its products and services on time, then it was never necessary... just a bunch of dead weight. But management IS important, and after firing a few layers eventualy delivery WILL be compromised, and youll have to hire back that last layer.

[cybercoma]

Joe Comartin is hilarious: "I plead guilty for being on the side of workers' rights."