Moonlight Graham Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Thoughts? Interesting article here that argues the famine is a man-made crisis, not just an "environmental emergency", that could have been avoided: Nor was the crisis unexpected. The rains failed early this year in Kenya and Ethiopia, and there has been next to none for two years now in Somalia. Aid agencies and governments have known for almost a year that food would run out by now. But it is only now, when the children begin to die and the cattle have been sold or died that the global humanitarian machine has moved in, with its TV shows, co-ordinated appeals and celebrities. Why did it not go earlier? Because it takes months to prepare properly for a disaster.Just as in 2008, the war in Somalia is primarily responsible for the worst that is happening. As Simon Levine of the Overseas Development Institute says: "Wars don't kill many people directly but can kill millions through the way they render them totally vulnerable to the kinds of problems they should be able to cope with." In this case, he says, people have lost all their assets and can't access grazing grounds they need. But remember too, that Somalia has been made a war zone by the US-led "war on terror". It's our fault as much as anyone's. This emergency will cost the west around $400m. If this money was put into long-term development instead of emergency aid and feeding programmes that keep people just above starvation, this tragedy could have been avoided. Instead, the world is almost certain to be here again in one or two years' time. Next time, though, there will be no excuses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Interesting.. We know the "famine" in Ethiopia in the mid-'80's was basically a "managed famine' under the auspices of Col. Mengistu... Standard Marxist operating procedure... This one seems more indirect,but with the same sorry results... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 But remember too, that Somalia has been made a war zone by the US-led "war on terror". It's our fault as much as anyone's. Next time, though, there will be no excuses. Doesn't this sort of imply there's no excuse for this famine? For the politicians in Lusaka, Nairobi or Addis, the lifestyle of these people seems archaic and outmoded. They are said to be outside mainstream national development, and to be pursuing a way of life that is in crisis and decline. So the politicians think little of taking away their dry season grazing grounds or blocking their traditional routes to pasture land. However, as seen in major international studies, the pastoralists produce more and better quality meat and generate more cash per hectare than "modern" Australian and US ranches. That's just phenomenal and I can imagine why industrialists would cheer if these people were snuffed...can you imagine putting this sort of traditional ecological wisdom together with something like buffalo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 The crooks that control Somalia by force look at this famine as a helping hand in the genocide they promote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted July 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 3 replies in this thread, 145 replies in the Oslo thread. Smell the apathy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Interesting.. We know the "famine" in Ethiopia in the mid-'80's was basically a "managed famine' under the auspices of Col. Mengistu... Standard Marxist operating procedure... This one seems more indirect,but with the same sorry results... Stalin did a good one on The Ukraine...yep those Maxist sure know how to get rid of the competion..you don't debate - just kill em all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 3 replies in this thread, 145 replies in the Oslo thread. Smell the apathy! It's about what is considered sensational and what titilates the senses - we are so dulled out to what is important that we are no longer moved by prolonged human suffering and the death of innocent people through hunger and thirst - WE are so deaf that it takes the sound of a massive blast to get our attention. Charitable NGOs have been bombarding us with pictures of little black kids with flys walking across their eyes...that the vision of a bloated and skeletal child does little to us other than cause us to change the channel...after all they are just people... Where as the blast in Oslo destroyed real people - fat healthy white people - and it destroyed very expensive STUFF..We seemed to be more interested in our stuff than the stuff that life is made of - people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 3 replies in this thread, 145 replies in the Oslo thread. Smell the apathy! You asked for "thoughts," yet you didn't even give your thoughts - you just very briefly stated what the article is about and then posted excerpts. What are your thoughts? Seems to me your lack of input is just as apathetic as you accuse the rest of us of being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 There shouldn't be people starving in this world. WE have the means to feed all the people around the world but at the same time, there's always been statements that there are too many people in this world so we need to cut back on the populations especially in Third World countries for a good 5-10 years. More energy is needed to fight the war on famine than on terrorism. We could have a more peaceful and contend world only if people would come together for the good on man. Here, in North America, look how many over weight people there are and if all of us just gave more to the people in the world that need food more than we do, then perhaps it would help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 3 replies in this thread, 145 replies in the Oslo thread. Smell the apathy! People are forever starving and dying by the trainload in Africa. The entire continent is a hopeless basket case which has not only seen no improvement in fifty years but has actually gotten worse. Nobody has any ideas about how to improve anything or solve anything or help those people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilter Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 (edited) No mention here of the news on Saturday that the relief program was being blocked by al quaida for fear that (th survivors would be influenced by "nonMuslim" ideas. What a kind "religion" Edited July 24, 2011 by Tilter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 People are forever starving and dying by the trainload in Africa. The entire continent is a hopeless basket case which has not only seen no improvement in fifty years but has actually gotten worse. Nobody has any ideas about how to improve anything or solve anything or help those people. Back when the cold war was in full swing, super powers liked to have surrogate wars and use Africa as some sort of sports arena. Weapons dealers loved it. The problems started arriving when the heads of families (males) were killed off...a cultural and social vacume formed. Young boys and girls hand no one to show them the ropes...We can thank in part - the former Soviet Union - along with America and other interlopers for the failed and damaged states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 No mention here of the news on Saturday that the relief program was being blocked by al quaida for fear that (th survivors would be influenced by "nonMuslim" ideas. What a kind "religion" Yah non-Muslim ideas like eating? If Al Quaida believe they are part of such a superiour religious system they would not feel so insecure about the submitted to Alah crowd being poluted by secularism or that silly prophet Jesus - who thought that feeding the people was a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 (edited) I think people have become inured to it, knowing full well that most of it is political. Also knowing that there is no surety that aid will get to those who need it as we know much ends up in the hands of the local despots. I don't have an answer but I suppose we have to dig into our pockets again and send anyway, but to whom - which is the best organization to give to. I like to international Red Cross for this. http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23972311-somali-militants-refuse-to-let-in-aid-and-say-theres-no-famine.do Edited July 24, 2011 by scribblet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 I think people have become inured to it, knowing full well that most of it is political. Also knowing that there is no surety that aid will get to those who need it as we know much ends up in the hands of the local despots. I don't have an answer but I suppose we have to dig into our pockets again and send anyway, but to whom - which is the best organization to give to. I like to international Red Cross for this. http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23972311-somali-militants-refuse-to-let-in-aid-and-say-theres-no-famine.do Red Cross is pretty stable and has a good rep. Never send money to any orgainzation that likes to show cow eyed chidren with bloated bellies - over and over again...Makes you wonder...after all these years of being subjected to these pictures that some how some of the problems would be solved by now - beware the swindler who takes advatage of the good heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Red Cross is pretty stable and has a good rep. Never send money to any orgainzation that likes to show cow eyed chidren with bloated bellies - over and over again...Makes you wonder...after all these years of being subjected to these pictures that some how some of the problems would be solved by now - beware the swindler who takes advatage of the good heart. Ummmmmm... the "cow-eyed children with bloated bellies" still exist. You think that problem has been solved by now? Because it hasn't. They're very real. There are way too many orphans due to AIDS, and too many of them are on the streets, trying to survive on their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remiel Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 3 replies in this thread, 145 replies in the Oslo thread. Smell the apathy! Apathy that has been bred by history. Plenty of people argued when piracy was a hot topic that if the West wanted to do something about piracy they should do something about Somalia, and yet they were ignored then. Why should anyone expect that something will come of talk this time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted July 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 You asked for "thoughts," yet you didn't even give your thoughts - you just very briefly stated what the article is about and then posted excerpts. What are your thoughts? Seems to me your lack of input is just as apathetic as you accuse the rest of us of being. Maybe, but i get bonus points for starting a thread on my apathy! Maybe it's not all apathy. Maybe, like people have said, it's that people have heard this same old song again and again. Some truth to this, but i would argue against that in this particular case since a famine by definition means the scale of hunger and death is much greater than the usual constant trickle of deaths in Africa. I think much of it is indeed apathy because this famine doesn't affect us in the West. They live or they die, it hardly changes anything in our lives. A major reason why hardly any of us have heard much about "Africa's World War", the Second Congo War in the DRC, which has killed more people than any other conflict since WWII, over 6 million people. How many people have even heard of this war, let alone the scale of its destruction? How many even give a shit? I also think it has to do with the fact that many of us just don't understand this region properly. We know much about North American politics, European politics, even some about Latin America and Asia, but Africa is not in the news much or most other media comparatively so its culture, societies, and politics are mysterious to us so we have little to authoritatively say about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 I think it's just as you said - a combination of famines and death in Africa not being something new along with not knowing really much of anything about the country's political system(s). Seems there's not much we can do about it other than on an individual basis. I agree with Topaz, though, of those who can, helping. If everyone who was able to sponsored just one child, for example, the problem would likely cease to exist. I also like the idea of not just giving money for food, but giving money for animals, trees, etc. to enable them to make a living, and also for education. But then, as I said previously, so many orphaned children are in the numbers, and they certainly are the most difficult to reach/help - if not impossible. And of course it's up to the governments, which is some cases are totally corrupt, to see that aid reaches those in need, that education is offered, etc. The problem exists far beyond the lack of food. Perhaps that's a reason why the problem persists. (And yes, you do get points for starting the thread. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted July 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 (edited) I think it's just as you said - a combination of famines and death in Africa not being something new along with not knowing really much of anything about the country's political system(s). Seems there's not much we can do about it other than on an individual basis. I agree with Topaz, though, of those who can, helping. If everyone who was able to sponsored just one child, for example, the problem would likely cease to exist. I also like the idea of not just giving money for food, but giving money for animals, trees, etc. to enable them to make a living, and also for education. But then, as I said previously, so many orphaned children are in the numbers, and they certainly are the most difficult to reach/help - if not impossible. And of course it's up to the governments, which is some cases are totally corrupt, to see that aid reaches those in need, that education is offered, etc. The problem exists far beyond the lack of food. Perhaps that's a reason why the problem persists. (And yes, you do get points for starting the thread. ) As you say, the problem exists far beyond the lack of food. It is development of so many things that is needed. Political (liberal democracy? or democracy more compatible with their own cultures?), government/institutional (can't do much without a capable bureaucracy), economic (duh), health, education etc. Having studied international development and Africa in some detail, to me the greatest thing individuals and governments in the West can do to help sub-Saharan Africa is to end our exploitation (especially economic) of these countries, and to put them on at least an even playing field with OECD countries in terms of trade. We exploit our power over them by forcing them to agree to trade terms which are greatly to our favour and little if not detrimental to theirs. It's the same across virtually all developing countries. We also need to end the vast subsidies such as those we give to our agricultural industry that allows us to sell these goods much cheaper than those in developing countries, thus destroying their competitive advantage in agriculture...and leading many countries such as those in Latin America to turn to growing drug crops just to make a living because it remains one of their few areas of competitive advantage. Our governments also put garbage preconditions on foreign aid and debt-relief, forcing economic and political reforms in the donors interests, and stipulating that money used for foreign aid must be spend on products/companies from the donor countries (we have to make a profit on all this "aid", right?). Citizens in the West need to wake up and pressure their governments to stop this B.S. We don't have to pay to feed these people, we just have to give these people a fighting chance to attain the ability to feed themselves. Edited July 24, 2011 by Moonlight Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 These are failed states - barbarism rules. How do you provide assistance to the suffering and dying went there is not even a hint of the rule of law in the air? This becomes a problem that would be a mixture of military and humanitarian efforts would be needed..What nation wants to commit troops to this run down place? Name one that can afford or has the will to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Ummmmmm... the "cow-eyed children with bloated bellies" still exist. You think that problem has been solved by now? Because it hasn't. They're very real. There are way too many orphans due to AIDS, and too many of them are on the streets, trying to survive on their own. Did not intend for my colourful language to interfere with my message regarding the Red Cross..My daughter did a lot of work for them and I have met many of their members at social functions - they are all honest and good people. You would think that western nations were rasists and simply expect the black African to go into oblivion...If they were white people...you would imagine that aid would arrive quickly...not so - those in control of aid dispise humanity in general..we have idealogs in high positions who quietly believe that this is nature taking it's course - all these problems are man made... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treehugger Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) People are forever starving and dying by the trainload in Africa. The entire continent is a hopeless basket case which has not only seen no improvement in fifty years but has actually gotten worse. Nobody has any ideas about how to improve anything or solve anything or help those people. Fifty years is generous, Supposedly the oldest country in the world and one of the most backward. Groups of people have gone to Africa for years to teach them how to garden, about irrigation etc The National Post. July 23 "Despite decades of foreign aid including the.ONE TRILLION dollars have poured into Africa in 60 years, for developement related aid,And 152.2 billion over 50 years to Africa.The famine of 1984-5 in Ethiopia was blamed on a lack of early warning.This time there was a warning and still..." If that part of the country is subject drought, don't wait untill thousands die move on to another area that has rain. You live on a desert, you have droughts. If the Dutch can take over flooded countryside (Bradford) and make it into one of the most lush growing areas in Canada,it tells me who wants to work and who doesn't. Edited July 25, 2011 by treehugger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 If the Dutch can take over flooded countryside (Bradford) and make it into one of the most lush growing areas in Canada,it tells me who wants to work and who doesn't. I think that's overly simplistic. As the article indicates, there are a lot of factors at play in Africa - reducing them to 'they are lazy' is so over-simplified that it almost excuses you from the debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) I don't think I really care about this Somalian famine. It's certainly not our responsibility to feed them money to address their own failures. Let them engage in a mass exodus to a better place if they really want to save themselves. It's a failed state and will experience famine after famine unless they get their act together. I admit my apathy. Let Somalian ex-pats fix this problem on their own with their own fundraising efforts. Edited July 25, 2011 by Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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