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Alberta Separatism


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No, those children should be put into foster homes not daycare.
Who is going to know that? How to decide?
Daycare is just a subsidy to working parents.

Why should I pay for for babysitters for your children.

I agree. Let's find a way to make it work for parents that choose to stay at home, those who choose to work and those who are idiots. Universal fulltime school starts at age 6. Why not age 3, but voluntary and State paid?

I would have happily paid when I was 2 if I had had the money I have now. IOW, tax the rich now as a post-accident insurance premium. Their poverty could have happened to them.

I think parents should be encouraged to have at least one parent stay home and raise their own children; at least until they start school.
When does "school" start?
Why is cigarette smoking suddenly so much worse than those who drink and drive.
Good point. Drunk driving is maybe worse than smoking. A smoker kills herself, a drunk driver kills others. I think the government should use my tax dollars to protect my life through advertising against drunk driving. Change people's lifestyles, please!
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The rich pay more in tax than the poor but both get to drive on roads built with those taxes. I'd call that stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. Is it more obvious if the tax money is used to subsidize public transport?

That sounds like "both rich and poor are forbidden to sleep underneath a bridge at night" so everything is equal. I do not think so. First, there are far more poor people paying taxes and there would not be roads without them (remember Rosa Parks and public transport?). Second, expensive and inefficient vehicles are subsidized by fuel prices that do not compensate for environmental degradation (I suspect that few "rich"people drive cars like a LUPO/TDI). Third, one person is driving a Lexus while the other an old Ford... or is the rich person just flying?

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Then explain why the vast majority of Ridings within Alberta went Conservative, Quebec went Bloc, and Ontario went Liberal........then explain how cultural values or political beliefs are not one in the same.....

Uh..becaus eof how our electoral system works? Duh.

It may be more or less then 15%.......I don't know and it doesn't really mater yet, because we will have to wait until Quebec leaves first so as to show the majority of Westerners that sovereignty is a possibility.

Sepratism is a dying movement in Quebec. The soverignists haven't been able to acheive their goal of an independent Quebec in almost 40 years. They've lost the momentum.

No you are mistaken, Quebec wanted distinct society status, more rights than everyone else. We just want everyone else to have the same rights as everyone else. But ya I know that's selfish whining to want equality.

What were those "extra rights"? What "rights" are Albertans currently being denied?

Ah more clues as to your thought process, you're anti-religion too.

What's your point?

As much as you try to play with numbers, somehow trying to make yourself feel better, creating this false reality that the west is liberal it's not. I think you are the one who should leave this "island of stupidity" as you put it. If you're so much more enlightened than the rest of us here, you leave. Go east to be with like minded folks and enjoy your taxes and pat yourself on the back for bettering humanity.

It's time to overcome your denial. 1.7 million westerners voted Con, 2 million for other centre or left of centre parties.

I like Alberta. I think it is a great medium between socialist canada and the problems the US faces. I like our gun laws as they are, I like two tiered health care, I like our beliefs in the free market system, I like our compassionate conservatism. We'll leave we'll just take what is ours with us.

Two-tirered medicine, lax gun laws, the paradoxially monikered compassionate conservativism are hallmarks of the United States. I've already pointed out that Alberta has long benefited from Canada's traditional social-democratic outlook. So teh Alberta you envision exists mostly in your head and on teh Sun's editorial pages.

We will and we will take our ignorant, cavemen citizenry with us and our province and our capitalist swine money too. You can then sit in you’re workers paradise and call us hicks if you like; although, I would have thought do to you’re obvious intellectual superiority that might be beneath you. I mean don't all the Albertans on this board need a name tag so they can spell there own names.

...

Easy, I think he likes our money

It's my money.

You are probably correct in this assement Cartman but a triple e senate is the only way to fix it. It is also a proven concept as it is what helps keep the US together. As States like Alaska have two senators and 1 rep were as california has 2 senators and 55 reps. So Alska still has a say in government because there is both rep by region and population. No alienation problems.

We're talking about two completely different systems of government. What works in the U.S. won't necessarily translate well here. I think a better comparison is Australia, which has a Senate elected by PR.

Somthing just doesn't compute when Layton, the NDP and sound economic policies are mentioned within the same sentence.

That would be the limits of small minds.

I disagree, unless in the most extreme cases, the Government should not become involved with the day to day lives of people.

I wonder: is gay marriage an extreme case?

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Uh..becaus eof how our electoral system works? Duh.

Thats not answering the question.........I'm not talking about the electoral system, I'm talking about voting trends and the end result........

Again:

Then explain why the vast majority of Ridings within Alberta went Conservative, Quebec went Bloc, and Ontario went Liberal........then explain how cultural values or political beliefs are not one in the same.....
Sepratism is a dying movement in Quebec. The soverignists haven't been able to acheive their goal of an independent Quebec in almost 40 years. They've lost the momentum.

So the Bloc vote mean nothing then? What about when Quebec elects a PQ government in their next election?

That would be the limits of small minds.

......Or a realistic, grounded mind that understands money doesn't grow on trees.........

I wonder: is gay marriage an extreme case?

Nope. I don't care what anybody does in their own home as long as it's not hurting another...........

My only "beefs" with this entire gay marriage thing, is that I fear that eventualy Churchs will be forced to wedd a gay couple out of fear of being charged with a hate crime. Also, elected officials should decide on issues such as this, not appointed judges.

Other then that, To each his/her own I say.......

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Wow, is that one convoluted thread :blink: [no thesaurus necessary for that one ;) ]

Back to the basics... I don't think that anyone is better off if anyone were to seperate. Quebec provides all sorts of cultural intricacies that make our country unique, but more importantly, they provide a large amount of natural resources, which, in turn, mean more tax money for the rest of us. Alberta provides that frontierist element that so many in the East have forgotten, but again, more importantly, contributes large amounts of money to the federal government. The rest of Canada would be hard put to survive without either of these provinces.

As for what the separating provinces would lose...just look at the Maritimes. There are good economic times, and there are bad. It's always good to have a support system for the bad, even if it means paying a little extra during the good. The Atlantic provinces, while perhaps never economic powerhouses in Canada, nevertheless were solid industrial and resource-rich economies that for many years contributed greatly to Canada as a whole. Now, they benefit from the support system built into our federal administration. Alberta especially has to consider the possibility that they too will need a support system once their resources run out.

With a united Canada, everyone benefits. We're still small enough that cultural differences can be both recognized and celebrated, yet large enough that we shouldn't feel threatened by these differences. The support that all regions, in turn, give and recieve, are what make this country so great. Separation hurts everyone.

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You have it right there. In the future , we may all be relying on the northern territories to supply all our resources; oil and diamonds. We should all remember that and treat them well. It would be much easier for them to separate and join the USA/Alaska. Or just form their own country.

We should use our resources wisely and ensure future generations will have some.

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Alberta seperating is a stupid idea. I know the East has raped Alberta beacuse of energy. And we alienate them. But it's their fault for not electing more Liberals.

Well said :rolleyes:

1. Insults

2. Plundered

3. Alienation

4. Blame

Would you want to stay in that situation? Now be honest....

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Alberta seperating is a stupid idea. I know the East has raped Alberta beacuse of energy. And we alienate them. But it's their fault for not electing more Liberals.

In theory, it makes sense to vote in more liberals but what if the liberals do not stand for what Albertans believe in? There is no free vote yet so what would more liberals from Alberta help? They have to vote the party line so what the hell does it matter what they think or believe? It is time to let politicians vote according to how their constituents want them to vote, not what the party wants all the time.

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It will be a great day in Canadian politics when MPs vote on legislation according to their constituents' views.

Of course, I don't see it happening really soon...but you never know. Already, I do see signs of it, when disgruntled MPs vote against the party line on certain issues.

I thought about what a no-party system would be like, and it occurs to me that there are benefits. When politicians ally themselves with one party, they are stating what their beliefs are, comprehensively, through the party policy. This allows voters to understand, before the election, approximately what this candidate stands for.

If MPs go against party policy too often, how do you know where they really stand on other issues that are important to you? When you vote, you are balancing the desire for a certain candidate against the overall policy of the political party. Many people vote strictly with one party. If that MP goes against their party, what are we voting for? How do we know who to vote for?

If MPs voted in the House for what their constituents want, regardless of party policy, there would have to be more effort by individual candidates to enlighten their constituency as to what they, personally, believe.

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What are you getting at, Stoker?

The idiocy of your post.

Let's try again shall we?:

*You Wrote*

Alberta seperating is a stupid idea. I know the East has raped Alberta beacuse of energy. And we alienate them. But it's their fault for not electing more Liberals.

You say you are against Alberta (I say the west) seperating in one sentence, then in the following sentences you outline the reasons for us wanting to leave......then have the audacity to blame Western Alienation on us..........give me a break :rolleyes:

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i dont agree with a western alienation. i think that the atlantic province, the north,the indians and quebec in part are aliened too. When i say quebec in part i mean that their are many quebecers who work for a centralized country which many other quebecers see as an alienation.

i think that the partnership between the province on issues should be made by choice and not by force. Federalism can work pretty well in a country with a dominant culture and history. but its not the case in canada. evry province or regions has its ideologic vews. But with a federal government a majority that can be a minority in a regions can win. If the conservative would have won, and 0 in representation in quebec, it would be kind of funny.

So if the the west vote conservative , east vote liberal and quebec vote bloc, the liberal party is not a good representation of canada. Thats why federalism fail in many point to unite canada and thats why we should look for another system before its too late.

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Alberta seperating is a stupid idea. I know the East has raped Alberta beacuse of energy. And we alienate them. But it's their fault for not electing more Liberals.

Don't let Alberta's bellyaching mislead you.

The NEP was one of the best programs Canada ever had.

maplesyrup is a big trudeau fan if he thinks the NEP was just a little problem.

alberta went to NY to get investment to get the oil indusrty started as baystreet did not want to invest in the oil patch. the oil industry came under US because some canadian oil companies were sold to the US as they were not profitable if they didn't run at full capacity because ottawa didn't want to build a pipeline to the east... they could get cheaper oil from the arabs at the time. then when oil went up trudeau was prepared to buy it at 37/barrel from the arabs while 16/barrel oil remained in the ground as a result of the NEP. economist say alberta would of gone through a mild recession instead it recovered a few years after the maritimes.

the NEP was discrimination on a mass scale

The damage done to Alberta's economy was debilitating and pervasive. Its effects weren't immediate but by 1983 thousands of businesses had gone broke or just given up. The real estate market collapsed forcing thousands of people to just walk away from their investment. There were 2000 engineers that lost their jobs in 1983 and I was one of them. Just imagine the furore in Ontario if an act of parliament cost 8000 engineers their jobs. The effect lasted long past the end of the NEP. I considered myself lucky that I also had a business education to fall back on. I signed on to help a very good friend save his business which employed 25 people. We had to impose 30% wage cuts and drop all benefits just to stay alive. And before any of you commies think we just put it on the backs of the workers, my friend and I collected salaries of $15,000 per year and worked about 80 hours a week for the next 3 years. The economy was finally strong enough by 1986 that the business started growing again and I moved on. Am I bitter? Yup.

that old message from ontario just vote liberal; they will listen to what you have to say ; problem solved...

that argument just dosen't wash; any party that dosen't listen to ontario is out the door the next election the liberals have proven they do not care what the west thinks. it is simple mathematics do you cater to 100 ontario seats by offending 25 alberta seats. when push comes to shove ontario/quebec will always win; it is not a matter of who is in the right as shown by the cf18 contract that should of gone to winnipeg with the lower bid.

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The NEP was one of the best programs Canada ever had.

MS, could you please back this statement with facts? I know the NEP falls into the NDP rhetoric of taking from the rich and giving to the poor but the NEP did not do that. It took from the west and gave it to the east. You obviously did not live in Alberta during the 80's to witness thousands of people lose everything they had worked hard for. Unemployment skyrocketed, business failures were an everyday occurence and wage levels were set back several years. 60 billion dollars was taken from one province in the span of 3 years and given to the east. If this was such a good plan, then how come it was so short lived? It was a very disasterous program of Trudeaus hatred of the west, remember the Trudeau salute to the west? That pretty well sums up how the west has felt ever since the early 80's. Yeah, maybe Alberta should get over it but there are still plenty of people around that had to start their lives over completely because of the NEP, people who lost everything, family, home and livelyhood. Yep, really good program, give your head a shake MS and face reality.

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And before any of you commies think we just put it on the backs of the workers, my friend and I collected salaries of $15,000 per year and worked about 80 hours a week for the next 3 years

Actually Ticker, most left-wing literature which argues in favour of your argument. Essentially, that the "periphery" is being stripped of resources while the "centre" milks the cow. The Left is in favour of redistribution including regional redistribution. This was a Liberal policy, not an NDP policy. The idea may have been to allow citizens to profit from their natural resources, but the reality was that Alberta was screwed.

I also lived in Alberta during the hard times and remember Trudeau's "salute" to the West.

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Trudeau hated the West, what's next?

Where do you come up with these absurdies? He married someone from the West.

The reality is nothing ever changes. All the bellyaching coming out of Alberta is the old rich against the poor argument and nothing else.

The NEP was simply a redistribution of wealth in Canada which is the role of our federal government.

And if another area in Canada becomes financially wealthy in the future, Canadians would expect no less a solution from our federal government.

I also lived in Alberta during the hard times and remember Trudeau's "salute" to the West.

We constantly here this, but what was going on for Trudeau to have jestured like that? Do you know?

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