maplesyrup Posted July 2, 2004 Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 -from paul wellls Phone-in shows and online forums are abuzz with word that this is, dammit, the laaaaaaaast straw, and Alberta will finally secede.Enjoy the humour of the situation: There's a province where the Liberal vote went up and where Liberal MPs held their own. And there's a province where the Liberal vote went down and where a large number of Liberal MPs were beaten by Conservatives. The place where Liberals held their own, of course, is Alberta. The place where Liberals posted losses, of course, is Ontario. It is reassuring to note that Alberta separatists are no brighter than their cousins in Quebec. For such a great country, Canada sure has a lot of whiners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted July 2, 2004 Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 The day Alberta starts using its constitutional prerogatives to the hilt to insulate itself from national policies; the day it decides to fall back on its considerable resources to go it alone on a national program such as medicare is the day when the so-called Canadian model starts to unravel.There are those who think such matters can be swiftly resolved by browbeating Alberta into submission. But in the next Parliament that view will be a minority view, one that the Martin government would attempt to implement at its peril. Chantal Hebert in the Toronto Star This may be a little inflammatory but she's not wrong either. If Alberta defended its rights as strongly as Quebec does, Canada would arguably be a different country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted July 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 The health care conference coming up should be a hoot with all the different lobbyists at work: The rich against the poor National standards vs provincial jusisdiction Privatization vs public Alternative medicine vs standard medicine Liscensing immigrant health care professionals Shortening waiting lists Controlling the costs Restoring coverage in areas such as eye exams, etc. I like what Alberta is about to start doing: sending out an annual statement of your health care costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playfullfellow Posted July 3, 2004 Report Share Posted July 3, 2004 I like what Alberta is about to start doing: sending out an annual statement of your health care costs. I like this idea too, as far as I can remember, BC used to do that and it was amazing the number of mistakes there could be found on your quaterly statement. I am sure there are a lot of extra tests added to bills as well as exagerated visit lengths. Right now there are no checks or balances to keep track of if doctors are over billing. Human nature as it is, I am sure some of them are doing so and now we need to figure out what this is costing the tax payer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takeanumber Posted July 3, 2004 Report Share Posted July 3, 2004 I don't think that most Albertans 'get it' yet. But that's okay. If the 20th century was the Quebec round, the 21st century will be the Alberta round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playfullfellow Posted July 3, 2004 Report Share Posted July 3, 2004 As for Alberta separatism, I am against that. I am for more autonomy but I would like to see Canada stay as a country. As with many, I am disappointed by the election results but meh, life goes on and all we can do is see what happens. I dont consider the Cons losers over all of this, they did a decent job for the most part. For the most part, I think Albertans want to stay a part of Canada. One of the things that really scares the crap out of everyone is the Kyoto Protocal. If you listen to one camp, it will be a boon for Canada, if you listen to another camp, it will be devistation for the west in general and mostly Alberta. Alberta doas not want to revisit the 80's when we were all almost bankrupted because of the NEP and high interest rates. Gun control is another issue that sticks in peoples throats a lot in Alberta. 2 billion blown on something that won't work. If the Libs and NDP don't cause a lot of tax increases and actually do something about healthcare without throwing a lot of money at it, then there is not much we as Albertans can say. Gun control should be a provincial jurisdiction, if a province wants gun control, then they should enact the laws themselves. There are plenty of issues a person could "whine" about but are they really worth splitting the country up about? I dont think so but a lot of people do. We also need to start to take them seriously too because, like it or not, they are picking up momentum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playfullfellow Posted July 3, 2004 Report Share Posted July 3, 2004 alberta separation issue this is the story in our local paper. Might be of interest to some might not to others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alliance Fanatic Posted July 4, 2004 Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 Maplesyrup you think its a great country, you probably think Cuba is a great country. This country was alot better in the 1950's when we actually had a strong military, a strong family foundation, a strong economy, and a strong democracy. What happened to that country, oh yeah right, that country was evil and facist, and Pierre Trudeau enlightened us. Your version of Canada is not my version of Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bro Posted July 4, 2004 Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 So the west wants out of Confederation,eh. Well thank you very much Mr. Trudeau,Mr. Mulroney,Mr. Chretien,and Mr.Martin.As always,a special thank you to the piggys in the pork barrel voters from Ontario,and the leaders of the Quebec movement,sharing the pork barrel with the Ontario piggys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 Have you seen this web site? Is this for real? Separation Alberta L'Alberta aux Albertains! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 This country was alot better in the 1950's when we actually had a strong military, a strong family foundation, a strong economy, and a strong democracy. Don't forget the sky-high tax rates of that era too. Maybe that had somethingn to do with our social stability. Hmmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 Don't forget the sky-high tax rates of that era too.WTF?If government's take of the economy hasn't changed much between 1976 and 2003, it certainly grew between 1950 and 1976. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 The rates were more skewed towards the rich then, and less to the middle class. I don't have a link to give you, but I have looked this up before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 This is by far the best question, but has yet to be answered: Why Stay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 This is my favorite part: There are two net contributors to Ottawa; - Alberta and Ontario. The difference is that Ontario gets a return on investment. They have a diversified economy with end use manufacturing. They also have a strong voice in federal policy. So, because Ontario hasn't put all its economic eggs in one basket (especially one so prone to cycles of boom and bust as oil) and isn't represented by a fringe party, it's somehow Ottawa's fault Alberta gets screwed? Maybe, just maybe, Alberta should look at economic diversification (doubtful in a province that's as hooked on oil as a junkie on smack) or vote for political parties not stocked with frightening extremists. Of course, no one ever seems to ask how much separation would cost. Let's assume Alberta separates and saves their $11 billion or so a year. Well, they'd need to spend money on building a new civil infrastructure (including police), and they'd need to make do without federal transfers for health care, education and whatnot. And being Alberta, they'd want some semblance of a military. None of this would come cheap. Add in the fact that Alberta is vulnerable to fluctuations in world petroleum prices and you'd have a tiny, economically unstable, landlocked state with a population smaller than most major North American cities aand completely surrounded by foreign countries (one of which: Canada is not too likely to be all that chummy) An independant Alberta would quickly become a northern Puerto Rico, only with crappier weather and more oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 This is my favorite part:QUOTE There are two net contributors to Ottawa; - Alberta and Ontario. The difference is that Ontario gets a return on investment. They have a diversified economy with end use manufacturing. They also have a strong voice in federal policy. Why did you leave out the last sentence? The Kyoto Accord would have adversely affected Alberta and Ontario, however, Ottawa exempted the Ontario Auto Industry from the Accord. Reads different when you quote the entire thing eh? Of course, no one ever seems to ask how much separation would cost. Let's assume Alberta separates and saves their $11 billion or so a year. Well, they'd need to spend money on building a new civil infrastructure (including police), and they'd need to make do without federal transfers for health care, education and whatnot. And being Alberta, they'd want some semblance of a military. How far do you think that "11 billion" would be go when the "new Alberta dollar" is backed by one of the world's largest oil reserves? An independant Alberta would quickly become a northern Puerto Rico, only with crappier weather and more oil. ........Or Alberta would become a "Western" UAE or Qatar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bro Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 The health care conference coming up should be a hoot Liscensing immigrant health care professionals A little bit of racism showing through your orange jumpsuit,eh Maple. I can see now why you don't like your party colours,just a bit pinful to the eyes.LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Let's assume Alberta separates and saves their $11 billion or so a year. Well, they'd need to spend money on building a new civil infrastructure (including police), and they'd need to make do without federal transfers for health care, education and whatnot. Far be it from me to advocate Albertan independance but Albertans pay for all these federal services now, I believe. The $11 billion in 2003 is net over and above this. For example, Alberta pays the federal government now for RCMP services. The net $139 billion transferred out of Alberta between 1961 and 1992 is measured in 1992 dollars and includes the implicit subsidy of the NEP's oil pricing below world prices. Underneath all these numbers, the question arises: who truly owns the oil and gas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Please; Albertan separatists; call yourself Albertan separatists not the West. We in BC are the west and we do not want to separate. Canada as a country is small enough in numbers. We need to stick together to enable us to negotiate fair trade deals. We already get the short end of the stick as we are dismissed as small potatoes and not as important as other countries (USA mainly) as a trading partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bro Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 And the Liberals continue to feed Quebec. What is the best solution for Canada? We could live without Quebec,but could Canada survive without Alberta?IMO,the answer is no,and in ten years,we would have to sell ourselves to the states,think about that,all you American hating liberals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Underneath all these numbers, the question arises: who truly owns the oil and gas? It's a moot point, the important question is who controls the money generated from the Oil and Gas industry, the answer is obvious....... Please; Albertan separatists; call yourself Albertan separatists not the West. We in BC are the west and we do not want to separate. Canada as a country is small enough in numbers. We need to stick together to enable us to negotiate fair trade deals. We already get the short end of the stick as we are dismissed as small potatoes and not as important as other countries (USA mainly) as a trading partner. I'm a Western Separatists, that lives on the Western part of Vancouver Island. My first choice would be a "united Canada" in which all regions have an equal say in how their lives are run. As was made clear by the last few federal elections, the "east/Ont" don't want this, so the "West" can do one of two things, put up with it or leave. If things don't go our way, instead of bitching and moaning about it, we should make things go our way by becoming "masters of our own destiny". Now I don't really believe that most British Columbians are either fore or against the idea, they just don't really see it as an option as of yet and I don't really see it as serious option until Quebec leaves. Once Quebec leaves, then I could see the West looking towards this option for the reason that we will see that it can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 It's a moot point, the important question is who controls the money generated from the Oil and Gas industry, the answer is obvious.......Who receives the royalties is the question. At present, they go to the Albertan government and then the feds siphon off a chunk. So, both governments "own" these natural resources, in the name of their citizens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bro Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Duceppe is a former communist.Are you saying you will let him dictate your next move? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Canada as a country is small enough in numbers. We need to stick together to enable us to negotiate fair trade deals. We already get the short end of the stick as we are dismissed as small potatoes and not as important as other countries (USA mainly) as a trading partner. Trade is not a boxing match. One person benefits when trading voluntarily with a large corporation composed of thousands of people. Voluntary trade, by definition, is a non-zero sum game. The richest countries in the world tend to be small ones that trade freely. Iceland has about 300,000 people, belongs to no world trading bloc and has one of the world's highest standards of living. Singapore is similar. Duceppe is a former communist.So is Lech Walesa and, I think, the Pope. What's your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Who receives the royalties is the question. At present, they go to the Albertan government and then the feds siphon off a chunk. So, both governments "own" these natural resources, in the name of their citizens. Would you happen to know the ratio of "ownership"? Duceppe is a former communist.Are you saying you will let him dictate your next move? I don't care if Duceppe was a communist or not, it's irrelevant when it comes to Quebec seperation and it's irrelevant to the doors that will be opened up to the west when Quebec leaves. What I find eerie, is the possable parallels that can be drawn between todays Canada and post Tito Yugoslavia.....You couldn't ask for a better cast of characters to reenact the FRY's break-up......Ontario can play the role of the "centralised power mongering Serbs", Quebec can play the Roman Catholic Slovenes, the West as Croatia and the Atlantic Provinces can play the abused Bosnian Muslims.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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