Alberta Separatism

[caesar]

Watch what you wish for; you just might get it. We would be small nothing countries with absolutely no voice in world affairs. dumb dumb dumb

[Stoker]

Watch what you wish for; you just might get it. We would be small nothing countries with absolutely no voice in world affairs. dumb dumb dumb

Small nothing Country? What do you think Canada currently is?

At worst, the West would become a first world, not just Oil, but resource rich nation with an equal footprint on the world stage that Canada currently holds......and I think the West, free of Ottawa, would have unlimited potential, thus playing a much more positive role in namely the growing Pacific Rim and to a lesser extent the rest of the world. Whats wrong with that?

[caesar]

That's right. Canada is a small country now. An independent Alberta would be a tiny "country" with only one product. It would be insignificant. Putting all its eggs in one basket. All the Canadian companies that now have their headquarters in Alberta would be leaving.

Canada is now still small but we have a good international reputation and a good diversifed selection of products to sell. What potential does Alberta have with its cold climate? You don't even have access to a port. Don't count on BC joining you. Our provincial government is not one we can trust. One corrupt Premier after the other. Campbell is the worst so far and should be on his way out next year. Campbell's right winged Liberals did not get the strong support in the last election for any of their platforms. In BC we only vote out the previous party. The NDP appear to be heading towards winning the next election. In fact many of us; cannot wait.

[Boydfish]

Caesar, I think you'd be best to limit yourself to speaking for yourself. British Columbia and British Columbians have, at best, a nominal connection to Canada.

I'd also be wary of assuming that the NDP will default back into power if the Liberals get voted out. Not only does that seem unlikely, you're trying to draw a connection where none exists. Enough people remember the mismanagement and utter incompetence of the NDP. Sure, there has been some corruption with the Liberals, but at least they've been corrupt and competent, whereas the NDP were not even good at their jobs while being corrupt.

[August1991]

Would you happen to know the ratio of "ownership"?

Offhand, no. Royalties on natural resources are complex. The provinces receive them and this boosts the Albertan government's revenue which is then skimmed for equalization payments.

The right to receive royalties on underground resources is provincial.

That's right. Canada is a small country now. An independent Alberta would be a tiny "country" with only one product. It would be insignificant.

Caesar, you seem hung up on this size question.

In sports and war, victory goes to the fastest, biggest or strongest. In trade, well in trade, the sports metaphor doesn't work at all. When you buy gas from Exxon, everyone wins.

Want a metaphor? Trade is like a good family. All sides win, from the smallest and weakest to the biggest and strongest.

[I miss Reagan]

There are BC and Saskatchewan separatists though not as many as the 14% in Alberta. An entire separate west would be good because we would be more balanced with the libs in Van and the NDP's from Regina. Not just a right wing entity. Separation should be thought of as a good thing not a negative. We're different from eastern canada. We have our own needs, that they seem to ignore. Unfortunatly we suffer from battered wife syndrome and can't seem to cut the ties.

[Black Dog]

Why did you leave out the last sentence?

QUOTE 

The Kyoto Accord would have adversely affected Alberta and Ontario, however, Ottawa exempted the Ontario Auto Industry from the Accord.

Reads different when you quote the entire thing eh?

Not really, as the line about Kyoto is appropos of nothing. But then the whole site seems to have been written by an eight-year-old.

How far do you think that "11 billion" would be go when the "new Alberta dollar" is backed by one of the world's largest oil reserves?

Well, Alberta's oil reserves are mostly locked up in the oil sands which are extremely costly to develop. Alberta's natural gas and conventional oil supplies are both dwindling.

Of course, even if Alberta was guaranteed a steady supply of oil, that doesn't protect its economy from the variances of supply and demand in a global economy (not to mention the fact that political instability tends to scare off investment)

Of course, all this is neither here nor there: Alberta separation would be lucky to get 20 per cent of the population behind it.

What I find eerie, is the possable parallels that can be drawn between todays Canada and post Tito Yugoslavia

That's insane. canada lacks the longstanding ethno-religious tensions that fuelled conflict in post-Communist Yugolsavia (tensions that existed for hundreds of years prior to Tito). What we have is a family squabble: their political views may differ, but there's little real difference between Albertans and residents of the GTA.

Separation should be thought of as a good thing not a negative. We're different from eastern canada. We have our own needs, that they seem to ignore. Unfortunatly we suffer from battered wife syndrome and can't seem to cut the ties.

How are we so different? You'l notice that the Conservatives' share of the vote dropped this election in the west and went up in Ontraio: the regional differnces trumpeted by separatist alarmists are a byproduct of our flawed electorals system.

And I find your battered wife analogy rather disgusting: I would hardly compare political squabbling with true oppression.

[I miss Reagan]

Well I find you quite arrogant and supercilious. Anyway you seem to be quite ignorant on the oil reserve facts. Including heavy oil we have 20% of the worlds oil. Technology is improving daily making it cheaper and cheaper to extract oil from the sands. BTW everyones oil supplies are dwindling.

Battered wife syndrome implies you are abused by a more powerful individual. Psychological barriers prevent you from escaping to a better life. Fear that you can't live without the hand that both feeds you and beats you down. No I think that analogy definitely applies.

About more people voting liberal in the west, there certainly has been a large influx of easterners in Alberta since 2000 taking advantage of our more capitalist way of life. I credit the rise in liberal votes to them

[Black Dog]

Well I find you quite arrogant and supercilious

There's nothing so dangerous as a fool with a thesaurus.

Anyway you seem to be quite ignorant on the oil reserve facts. Including heavy oil we have 20% of the worlds oil. Technology is improving daily making it cheaper and cheaper to extract oil from the sands. BTW everyones oil supplies are dwindling.

First: where did you get that 20 per cent figure? Canada doesn't even rank in the top ten of oil producing nations and estimates of capacity tend to vary.

However, my main point was that Alberta is an economic one-trick pony and therefore vulnerable to the instabilities inherent in a resource-based economy.

Battered wife syndrome implies you are abused by a more powerful individual. Psychological barriers prevent you from escaping to a better life. Fear that you can't live without the hand that both feeds you and beats you down. No I think that analogy definitely applies.

Bullshit. Battered wife syndrome indeed implies a power imbalance. But to say that Alberta, one of the only "have" provinces with its high average standard of living (due at least in part to the hated federalist system) is beaten down by the east is an offensive hyperbole that both overstates Alberta's case and trivializes real instances of abuse. No wonder separatists have such trouble being taken seriously: they're too prone to such rhetorical leaps to be considered anything but the fringe element they are.

About more people voting liberal in the west, there certainly has been a large influx of easterners in Alberta since 2000 taking advantage of our more capitalist way of life. I credit the rise in liberal votes to them.

So have more Albertans in turn been moving to Ontario to boost the Tory vote there? No, I credit the drop in Con support to the fact that fewer people are buying what the Cons are selling.

[I miss Reagan]

Well I find you quite arrogant and supercilious

There's nothing so dangerous as a fool with a thesaurus.

Anyway you seem to be quite ignorant on the oil reserve facts. Including heavy oil we have 20% of the worlds oil. Technology is improving daily making it cheaper and cheaper to extract oil from the sands. BTW everyones oil supplies are dwindling.

First: where did you get that 20 per cent figure? Canada doesn't even rank in the top ten of oil producing nations and estimates of capacity tend to vary.

However, my main point was that Alberta is an economic one-trick pony and therefore vulnerable to the instabilities inherent in a resource-based economy.

Battered wife syndrome implies you are abused by a more powerful individual. Psychological barriers prevent you from escaping to a better life. Fear that you can't live without the hand that both feeds you and beats you down. No I think that analogy definitely applies.

Bullshit. Battered wife syndrome indeed implies a power imbalance. But to say that Alberta, one of the only "have" provinces with its high average standard of living (due at least in part to the hated federalist system) is beaten down by the east is an offensive hyperbole that both overstates Alberta's case and trivializes real instances of abuse. No wonder separatists have such trouble being taken seriously: they're too prone to such rhetorical leaps to be considered anything but the fringe element they are.

About more people voting liberal in the west, there certainly has been a large influx of easterners in Alberta since 2000 taking advantage of our more capitalist way of life. I credit the rise in liberal votes to them.

So have more Albertans in turn been moving to Ontario to boost the Tory vote there? No, I credit the drop in Con support to the fact that fewer people are buying what the Cons are selling.

No need to get offended, come admit it you are supercilious.

Anyway I got the 20% number from the Calgary Herald a few months ago. I think it came from a statistical analysis from the US DOE.

Choose to be offended all you like but the abusive treatment we get from the east is neither overstated nor hyperbole (now who's playing with a thesaurus?). Throwing farmers in jail for selling their own wheat, throwing hunters in jail for not registering their shotguns, kyoto, NEP. All legislation which directly punishes a distinct region. I call that abuse. But hey if you believe you should go to jail for selling wheat and not weed I can see why you BCer's want to stay a part of Federation.

[August1991]

Anyway I got the 20% number from the Calgary Herald a few months ago. I think it came from a statistical analysis from the US DOE.

I think the percentage is higher.

Saudi Reserves at 25%

Although tar sands occur in more than 70 countries, the two largest are Canada and Venezuela, with the bulk being found in four different regions of Alberta, Canada: areas of Athabasca, Wabasha, Cold Lake and Peace River. The sum of these covers an area of nearly 77,000 km2. In fact, the reserve that is deemed to be technologically retrievable today is estimated at 280-300Gb (billion barrels). This is larger than the Saudi Arabia oil reserves, which are estimated at 240Gb.

Tar Sands Reserves greater than Saudi reserves

[kimmy]

So, because Ontario hasn't put all its economic eggs in one basket (especially one so prone to cycles of boom and bust as oil) and isn't represented by a fringe party, it's somehow Ottawa's fault Alberta gets screwed?

Maybe, just maybe, Alberta should look at economic diversification (doubtful in a province that's as hooked on oil as a junkie on smack) or vote for political parties not stocked with frightening extremists.

This just doesn't seem very well informed. It seems to suggest that Albertans just sit at home and collect royalty cheques for a living.

Obviously oil is Alberta's most profitable industry right now, which shouldn't be very surprising considering what is happening to the agriculture and forestry industries right now. However it is hardly the only industry here. Alberta is still a resource based economy, but that is slowly changing. All of Canada used to be a resource based economy at one time.

One of the reasons the west is still so heavily dependent on resources and agriculture is that it's how the west was settled. And it has been the federal governments' policy of development for this region for a long time. My grandparents came to Alberta (from Minnesota, ja know ) for the land, that was being given away to anybody who was willing to cultivate it. Which is a fine way of getting the new territory started, but the government did not exactly do much to promote growth. I could be wrong but I think that the national railways used to be subsidized to ship raw materials west to east, and to ship finished goods east to west. Which was to promote manufacturing in the east, and helps resource producers in the west, but removed any incentive for a manufacturing industry to grow in the west.

In the old days, Ontario used its advantages (population and location) to go from a resource economy to a diverse economy. Now Alberta is trying to do the same using our advantage: the prosperity that our resources bring.

This happens in several ways! Low taxes and operating costs for businesses make this one of the most attractive places in Canada for companies to set up shop. I work for an American information company that decided to open a location in Alberta because of low operating costs.

As well, Alberta's prosperity has created some of the best educational institutions in Canada. There are several first-rate technical schools. The University of Alberta is one of the top research universities in Canada, particularly in medicine. Alberta has growing industries in many areas of medical and chemical technology.

Things are going well right now but Albertans understand that the oil isn't forever. We want to make the most of our advantage to create lasting prosperity here. We want to make the best of it while we still can. That is why many people here object to seeing so much of our revenues taken away to support failing industries in other parts of the country. We don't mind helping other Canadians out but it seems like what is happening is that a lot of what should be used to build for our future is instead being spent to help others cling to their pasts.

Albertans are trying to build a diverse economy, thank you very much. And to those who say "You'll all be poor again when the oil dries up," I can only respond

[Black Dog]

Choose to be offended all you like but the abusive treatment we get from the east is neither overstated nor hyperbole (now who's playing with a thesaurus?). Throwing farmers in jail for selling their own wheat, throwing hunters in jail for not registering their shotguns, kyoto, NEP. All legislation which directly punishes a distinct region. I call that abuse. 

Yes it is hyperbolic (no thesaurus required). Alberta is far from being the 90 pound weakling of Confederation. remember: those farmer's violated the law and chose jail over fines (whether you agree or disagree with teh Wheat Board or not is irrelevant; it's not like they were tossed in the clink by the Brown Shirts for no reason). I haven't heard of anyon egetting jail time for failure to comply with the gun registry. Kyoto hasn't been imoplemented yet and I don't most Albertans coukld even articulate what the NEP was.

But hey if you believe you should go to jail for selling wheat and not weed I can see why you BCer's want to stay a part of Federation.

That's funny: too bad I'm not from B.C.

[I miss Reagan]

Yes it is hyperbolic (no thesaurus required). Alberta is far from being the 90 pound weakling of Confederation.

How so, what advantage do we have? The thing is we don't even want an advantage. We just want a seat at the table. We want to share our wealth with those people who need it. We just want a little bit of a say as to how it is used. We don't want it put towards legislation designed to screw us. Nor do we want it wasted on sponsorship scandals and government museums. I can see how you'd consider our outrage at the election outcome being spoiled, but I don't think you understand what the outrage was about. It wasn't about us not getting our way. It was about the incomprehensiblity that people would believe that the CPC is so radical that they'd rather vote in liberal corruption again. It was a kick in the stomach, to us it felt like a vote against us rather than a vote for the liberals.

I don't most Albertans could even articulate what the NEP was.

I don't know what your point is there. But I think many Albertans remember quite well what the NEP did to our province.

That's funny: too bad I'm not from B.C. 

Well where are you from so I can insult that place.... Jk

[Stoker]

Not really, as the line about Kyoto is appropos of nothing. But then the whole site seems to have been written by an eight-year-old

Did the "eight year old" get his or her facts wrong about Ottawa saving Ontario well sticking it to the West?

That's insane. canada lacks the longstanding ethno-religious tensions that fuelled conflict in post-Communist Yugolsavia (tensions that existed for hundreds of years prior to Tito). What we have is a family squabble: their political views may differ, but there's little real difference between Albertans and residents of the GTA.

Do we? Could you say that Quebec has felt "longstanding ethno-religious tensions" for close to 250 years? And could you also say that the West is belittled and treated as a bunch of "rednecks" when they wish to cling to their/our traditional values? Yeah nothing in common

[Black Dog]

How so, what advantage do we have? The thing is we don't even want an advantage. We just want a seat at the table. We want to share our wealth with those people who need it. We just want a little bit of a say as to how it is used. We don't want it put towards legislation designed to screw us. Nor do we want it wasted on sponsorship scandals and government museums.

I'm certainly opposed to waste and corruption, as well as the inequalitiesof the federalist system. However, whining and threats aren't the answer.

I can see how you'd consider our outrage at the election outcome being spoiled, but I don't think you understand what the outrage was about. It wasn't about us not getting our way. It was about the incomprehensiblity that people would believe that the CPC is so radical that they'd rather vote in liberal corruption again. It was a kick in the stomach, to us it felt like a vote against us rather than a vote for the liberals.

Boo frigging hoo. The rest of the country (and indeed; most westerners) refused to buy the CPC's codswollop: that's the way it goes in a democracy. I hate the Liberals, but, IMV, a CPC government would be worse on all fronts. Given the choice a government that's corrupt and backwards versus one that's merely corrupt, I'll take the latter. Obviously, I wasn't alone.

Well where are you from so I can insult that place.... Jk

I'm a born and raised Alberta boy.

Do we? Could you say that Quebec has felt "longstanding ethno-religious tensions" for close to 250 years? And could you also say that the West is belittled and treated as a bunch of "rednecks" when they wish to cling to their/our traditional values? Yeah nothing in common

Not even close. I suggest reading up on Yugoslavian history before making such ridiculous comparisons.

[Stoker]

Not even close. I suggest reading up on Yugoslavian history before making such ridiculous comparisons.

How about you give the readers digest version then?

Yugoslavia was born out of parts of different empires right? Was not Canada once part of different Empires?

Yugoslavia was a "mish-mash" of different cultures and religions and had these different cultures and religions concentrated in different geographical regions right? I say the Western, Eastern and Quebec regions all share a some what different culture right?

In Yugoslavia, one region (Serbia) controlled the rest right? Doesn't Ont controll the rest of Canada?

As I said, nothing in common eh

[Black Dog]

How about you give the readers digest version then?

Yugoslavia was born out of parts of different empires right? Was not Canada once part of different Empires?

Yugoslavia was a "mish-mash" of different cultures and religions and had these different cultures and religions concentrated in different geographical regions right? I say the Western, Eastern and Quebec regions all share a some what different culture right?

In Yugoslavia, one region (Serbia) controlled the rest right? Doesn't Ont controll the rest of Canada?

As I said, nothing in common eh

Canada is, compared to Yugolsavia or other ethnicly-divided nations, culturally homogenous. The cultural differences between regions are small and religious differences are essentially a non-factor.

If anything, your analogy is an argument for a stronger federalist system: after all, under the heavily centeralized government of Tito, Serbs, Muslims and Croats lived together in relative harmony. It was only with the collapse of the central government that things started breaking down.

EXPLAINING CULTURAL CONFLICT IN EX-YUGOSLAVIA: INSTITUTIONAL WEAKNESS, ECONOMIC CRISIS, AND IDENTITY POLITICS

[August1991]

Canada is, compared to Yugolsavia or other ethnicly-divided nations, culturally homogenous.

Slovenia, the richest republic of Yugoslavia, had an income per head ten times larger than the poorest republic, Macedonia.

In Canada, Newfoundland's income per capita is about 70% of Alberta's.

[Stoker]

Canada is, compared to Yugolsavia or other ethnicly-divided nations, culturally homogenous. The cultural differences between regions are small and religious differences are essentially a non-factor.

That explains the Bloc vote in Quebec, the Mainly Conservative vote out west and the Liberal vote out East......sounds homogenous to me..

If anything, your analogy is an argument for a stronger federalist system: after all, under the heavily centeralized government of Tito, Serbs, Muslims and Croats lived together in relative harmony. It was only with the collapse of the central government that things started breaking down.

You don't think that people in Quebec and a growing number out west are starting to think that the "central government" is breaking down?

*From your link BD*

In this contribution I offer an alternative explanation. I argue that the roots of “ethnic conflict” in the former Yugoslavia can be found in the institutional structure of the Yugoslav political and economic systems constructed after World War II.1 While the postwar institutional structure offered numerous incentives for identity with an integrated Yugoslav state, as well as incentives for regional (as opposed to ethnic) political loyalty, it also encouraged interethnic rivalry through its institutions of allocation, representation, and participation. As the federal state weakened, that institutional structure offered increasing incentives to political entrepreneurs to “play the ethnic card” in a bid for political power. Regional politicians used their access to resources to build a power base among local, culturally distinct populations.

There is no incentives for regional loyalty within Canada now is there? And there has never been any encouragement between different ethnic backgrounds in Canada right?

[I miss Reagan]

I'm certainly opposed to waste and corruption, as well as the inequalitiesof the federalist system. However, whining and threats aren't the answer.

Oh I think whining and threats ARE the answer. Look at how well it has served Quebec. I think it is the only way to get any recognition in a country full of appeasers. Besides, I don't consider it threats, I am fully in favour of cutting all ties with Canada and not looking back. I am a proud Albertan and an embarassed Canadian.

Boo frigging hoo.

And it's that kind of comment that I like to hear from Canadians, it just strengthens my cause. A liberal win in the last election was the best scenario for separatists like me. It just proved the utter stupidity we are surrounded by in this country.

I'm a born and raised Alberta boy.

Ah an Alberta traitor eh, you must have high self esteem.

[noelandmero]

Well said I miss regan.

[I miss Reagan]

Well said I miss regan.

Merci!

[I miss Reagan]

Tell me, if we're such whiners and such a redneck and racist drag on 'progressive' Canada, why not let us go. Why would you want a province like us in Canada. What benefit do give to this country? Obviously we are on a different track. Is it our money that Canada loves?

[Black Dog]

That explains the Bloc vote in Quebec, the Mainly Conservative vote out west and the Liberal vote out East......sounds homogenous to me..

First, differences in political opinions are not indicative of significant cultural differences.

Second, and as I've pointed out elsewhere, more westerners voted against the Cons than for, and more Ontario residents voted Con than last time. Exaggerated regional voting patterns are a product of the system, not of any real schism of cultural values or political beliefs.

You don't think that people in Quebec and a growing number out west are starting to think that the "central government" is breaking down?

To my knowledge, the view that the central government is breaking down has been kicking around since, oh, 1867.

That said, I reiterate: I recognize the federalist system as it currently stands is flawed. But it requires rational thinking and cooperation, not reactionary temper tantrums.

Oh I think whining and threats ARE the answer.  Look at how well it has served Quebec.  I think it is the only way to get any recognition in a country full of appeasers.  Besides, I don't consider it threats, I am fully in favour of cutting all ties with Canada and not looking back.  I am a proud Albertan and an embarassed Canadian.

I remember how, during the height of Meech Lake and the constitutional debate, Albertans largely regarded Quebec's nationalistic aspirations with disdain. Funny how, the same province that once dismissed Quebec as spoiled whiners are trying the same duds on for size.

Rather than separation, however, I think a far better solution would be if you and your whiny cohorts (who would be lucky to get 15 per cent of Alberta's population behind your wrongheaded, quixotic scheme) just pack up and go somewhere else, like the backwoods of the U.S. Bible belt, where your political and social notions are more likely to be accepted than here in Canada.

And it's that kind of comment that I like to hear from Canadians, it just strengthens my cause. A liberal win in the last election was the best scenario for separatists like me. It just proved the utter stupidity we are surrounded by in this country.

Au contraire: it appears you are an island of stupidity in the midst of an ocean of rationality.

Ah an Alberta traitor eh, you must have high self esteem.

As a matter of fact I do. But then, as an Albertan, feelings of superiority come easy when one is surrounded by ignorant rednecks.

(Traitor is also a strange epitheth to toss from someone who's handle pays tribute to a foreign ruler)

Tell me, if we're such whiners and such a redneck and racist drag on 'progressive' Canada, why not let us go. Why would you want a province like us in Canada. What benefit do give to this country? Obviously we are on a different track. Is it our money that Canada loves?

Because people like you are the minority. A vocal and annoying one, but a minority nonetheless. i like this province (though there's plenty about it I despise). I also like this country (even though nationalism of any stripe is irrational and, well, silly). And I'd rather see positive solutions, not destructive ones.

As I said: if you hate it here, you're free to move elsewhere.