game of thrones

overthere · June 2, 2014

Don't assume that all the good guys die, or even those that were dead at one point stay that way.

It's a long and complex story, and much of it is yet to be told.

Bonam · June 3, 2014

Yeah I didn't need to see that. This show is starting to wear on me. It's one thing to have a show that realistically depicts that the good guys don't always win, but this really swings too far in the other direction IMO. Tyrion getting iced would probably end this show for me for a while.

Who are the good guys? The characters one can sympathize with in this story keep changing, that is one of the things unique about the series compared to most other fantasy works.

Bonam · June 3, 2014

I think Tyrion's monologue about Cousin Orson and the beetle smashing kind of sums up the whole philosophy of the show. He was obsessed with finding out the purpose of the beetle smashing... but he never did. There was no purpose. Beetles got smashed. Chud. Chud. Chud. No reason. You think somehow Ned has to get out of prison and get revenge on the Lannisters... but he never does. You think that sometime down the road Arya is going to put her sword through Joffrey's neck... then Joffrey dies the next week. You think Oberyn has to win the duel because the show can't go on without Tyrion... well... If you start thinking that there's some kind of grand design that is going to play out-- this character is destined to do this, or that character has to survive for some reason-- you find out you're wrong. There's no greater purpose, no destiny. Chud chud chud.

Ha, that is well said. While Tyrion was talking about that, I was thinking it relates more to Gregor Clegane and what we saw of him in the previous episode... Orson smashed beetles for no reason anyone could discern, just like the Mountain smashes people for no reason. He didn't care who he was fighting or why, just that he got to smash someone. But you're right, it's a much broader parallel in the show as well.

Also... I think the Oberyn storyline itself was a bit more prominent in the books, it wasn't just a matter of determining Tyrion's fate but that of Oberyn himself and the justice he sought for his dead sister. I don't think the show did too great of a job of making people care about Oberyn or even House Martell in general.

Black Dog · June 3, 2014

Who are the good guys?

Generally speaking, they're the one's not smashing people's heads to pulp while bragging about raping and murdering women and children or flaying the skin from men who surrendered under the promise of safe passage.

The characters one can sympathize with in this story keep changing, that is one of the things unique about the series compared to most other fantasy works.

Well, maybe, except for the fact you can probably easily categorize most of the characters using D&D's alignment system.

For example, The Hound would be Neutral Evil, the Mountain and Ramsay Bolton are Chaotic Evil, Ned Stark and Brienne of Tarth would be Lawful Good, the Lannisters (minus Tyrion) Lawful Evil, Tyrion pure Neutral.

Boges · June 3, 2014

Generally speaking, they're the one's not smashing people's heads to pulp while bragging about raping and murdering women and children or flaying the skin from men who surrendered under the promise of safe passage.

Well, maybe, except for the fact you can probably easily categorize most of the characters using D&D's alignment system.

For example, The Hound would be Neutral Evil, the Mountain and Ramsay Bolton are Chaotic Evil, Ned Stark and Brienne of Tarth would be Lawful Good, the Lannisters (minus Tyrion) Lawful Evil, Tyrion pure Neutral.

Then you have Jon Snow as a pure good guy. Sansa and Arya seemed essentially good but now we see some compromises. Jamie was thought to be evil now we're not sure.

And how about the Tyrell's? Are they good guys? Dany was someone you could cheer for but now I'm starting to see her as way too authoritative.

Lots pf grey in this show.

Black Dog · June 3, 2014

Then you have Jon Snow as a pure good guy. Sansa and Arya seemed essentially good but now we see some compromises. Jamie was thought to be evil now we're not sure.

And how about the Tyrell's? Are they good guys? Dany was someone you could cheer for but now I'm starting to see her as way too authoritative.

Lots pf grey in this show.

Arya: Neutral ("nothing is nothing")

Sansa: started as a Lawful Good, is heading toward neutrality

Jamie: Lawful Evil

Mighty AC · June 3, 2014

I enjoy the many layers of Martin's characters. We learn to respect the motivations and actions of the evil characters and we see that our heroes are also not without their flaws. It's interesting that the fact that little in GOT is clear cut black/white or good/evil actually bothers people on a political site like this. We see the very same character traits in the politicians we talk about every day. We find ways to overlook the baggage of those we choose to support and vilify it in others. Oh and true justice is rare as well. It also holds true that those with money and power tend to better than those without, and the most successful get that way because they play the game, not because they are good people or have good intentions.

Anyway stay tuned...there are a couple big events left to cover in the last two episodes.

kimmy · June 4, 2014

I enjoy the many layers of Martin's characters. We learn to respect the motivations and actions of the evil characters and we see that our heroes are also not without their flaws. It's interesting that the fact that little in GOT is clear cut black/white or good/evil actually bothers people on a political site like this. We see the very same character traits in the politicians we talk about every day. We find ways to overlook the baggage of those we choose to support and vilify it in others. Oh and true justice is rare as well. It also holds true that those with money and power tend to better than those without, and the most successful get that way because they play the game, not because they are good people or have good intentions.

Anyway stay tuned...there are a couple big events left to cover in the last two episodes.

I don't think anybody here is upset that there is little black and white, and lots of shades of grey. And I don't think anybody here is complaining that the endings aren't always happy.

I used to watch David E Kelley's "The Practice" TV series. I used to think it was good. But gradually I became sick of it. It became very predictable: almost every trial on the show concluded in a manner that was most likely to enrage the viewer. If the defendant was a despicable piece of crap, it was guaranteed that Bobby Donnell and his team would get him acquitted. If the defendant was innocent or at least sympathetic, that would be one of the rare times the district attorneys would get a conviction... or else Bobby and the gang would resort to the most heinous tactics imaginable to obtain the acquittal. Whatever the case, it played out in a way that was calculated to infuriate. And at first this seemed like brilliant TV, because it was raw and intense and made me mad and shout WTF at the TV. But after a while, it didn't seem brilliant or raw or intense anymore, it just seemed manipulative and contrived. And I quit watching.

I'm not there yet with GoT, but that same feeling of being manipulative and contrived is starting to creep into it. Sometimes seems like stuff is just done to antagonize the viewer. Sure, they throw us a bone once in a while... Dany's dragon's hatch... Robb wins a big battle... Jaime heroically rescues Brienne from Bolton's henchmen... Joffrey chokes to death... but overall those little triumphs seem pretty few and far between.

Here's some crap I wrote three years ago:

I suppose Robb rallying the north to war should have been rousing and inspiring, but the way things go on this show, you can't be roused or inspired because you already know it'll end badly. They'll get to Lord Frey's bridge, and he'll pretend to honor their allegiance, and they'll discover too late that he's been bought by the Lannisters. Robb's army will be routed back to the north, Riverrun will fall to Jaime, and Lord Frey will be installed as the new Lord of the Riverlands. I don't know it, but it just seems inevitable, y'know? It seems telegraphed.

Sooo... I was wrong on some of the details, but things turned out more or less they way I predicted. I was wrong in guessing that Robb would be quickly defeated... they spent 2 seasons stringing us along... and I was wrong in thinking it would be a military defeat... the way things played out was so much more upsetting. The main error in my prediction was underestimating how far they'd go to rip the viewer's heart out.

Likewise last episode. Oberyn being defeated wasn't entirely unexpected, so they had to go the extra mile. So he was not just defeated, but horrifically mutilated in the most graphic and grotesque manner, just to make sure the viewer gets that special punched-in-the gut feeling.

-k

Mighty AC · June 4, 2014

I'm not there yet with GoT, but that same feeling of being manipulative and contrived is starting to creep into it. Sometimes seems like stuff is just done to antagonize the viewer. Sure, they throw us a bone once in a while... Dany's dragon's hatch... Robb wins a big battle... Jaime heroically rescues Brienne from Bolton's henchmen... Joffrey chokes to death... but overall those little triumphs seem pretty few and far between.

Here's some crap I wrote three years ago:

"When you play the game of thrones you win or you die!" Is this series really trending towards contrived antagonism or does it just clash with the fact that we are used to 93.75% of all literary endings to be happy? (a stat I made up for this post) <I Digress>I did spend 5 minutes searching for an actual statistic. Get this: I actually typed in the keywords 'percentage of happy endings'. I feel like such an internet noob, but I am sure you can guess the results. Needless to say, when I finally have an actual 'massage' I have a strong knowledge base to negotiate from</I Digress> Having my expectation cherry popped early by the Ned Stark beheading, coupled with the knowledge gained reading the books, I've really warmed up to the schemers. Everyone loves Tyrion but the masters like Varys and Littlefinger play the game several steps ahead of everyone else. Checkmate in 3.

Boges · June 7, 2014

The second Chronicles of Narnia was on basic cable today. Guess who's in it.

http://www.film.com/wp-content/uploads/2002/10/20313976-20313981-large.jpg

Tyrion himself!

GoT cast are everywhere in old movies whether it be Sandor Cleagan in Hot Fuzz or the bad guy from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade being Maestor Pycelle.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0IvM4l3qXx8/Uen_hZX8ISI/AAAAAAAAioQ/h02eAk3B0aQ/s1600/lurch+and+the+hound.jpg

http://images.thevine.com.au/resources/IMGRELATED/pycelle_190413101542.jpg

Edited June 7, 2014 by Boges

TimG · June 7, 2014

Is this series really trending towards contrived antagonism or does it just clash with the fact that we are used to 93.75% of all literary endings to be happy?

IMO, the reason that so many endings are happy is people look to movies/books/TV as a form of escapism and stories without happy endings do not deliver. However, there is a market for stories like GoT because being different from the norm is interesting. OTOH, one can only be "different" for so long before the "difference" becomes a trope on its own. For me, the continuous killing off of so many '~~good~~' empathetic characters is starting to grate. The story needs to inject more "happy" into the story arcs (getting rid of Joffrey was a good start). This does not mean giving up on the morally complex characters that are neither good or evil - just I need a feeling that in the long run the characters that I empathize with are going to be be alright. If I don't get that I may find myself giving up on the show.

Edited June 7, 2014 by TimG

kimmy · June 8, 2014

Yeah, I don't think we're anywhere close to 93.75% happy endings. I don't think we're anywhere close to 50% happy endings. I think we're batting about 0% for "empathetic" characters (which is a good choice of words because it ignores that whole annoying "but what is good?" sidetrack. Is Tyrion good? I dunno. Is Cersei bad? I dunno. But clearly we empathize with Tyrion, not Cersei.)

The only characters on the show who've had things go well for them are people we can't stand. Cersei, Tywin, Littlefinger, the Boltons, Walder Frey...

Daenarys is the only empathetic character who has had any success in the show, even as she becomes steadily less empathetic. And conversely Joffrey is the only antagonist who's suffered a significant setback.

One of the things that has kept me watching has been the anticipation that eventually the antagonists would see their fortunes turn for the worse, but so far there's been little sign it'll happen. I am really hoping they throw us a bone before the end of the season.

At the end of last season, there was that scene where Bran told the story about the cook who suffered a terrible curse when he killed a guest under his hospitality, and they immediately cut away to a scene with Walder Frey. And you figure "alright, that's some foreshadowing" and we anticipate some payback for the Freys... and we get frickin' nothing. If they keep teasing us like this and not delivering, they're going to lose people.

After the Viper was slain last episode, I was looking for silver linings and I thought "well, he severed The Mountain's Achilles tendon. Gregor will never be the same. He'll be easy prey when Sandor (or one of the Brotherhood Without Banners, or some Dornish killer, or any number of other swordsmen who have a bone to pick with Gregor...) catches up with him. That'll be fun."

Except it won't be, because-- ha-ha! --that's never going to happen. We won't get to see Gregor get what's coming to him. Pycelle is going to administer him some milk of poppy for the pain so that he can sleep... and Tywin is going to tap Grand Maester P on the shoulder and say "give him something a little stronger, wink-wink" and Gregor never wakes up. Because Tywin certainly can't have Gregor talking any more about the murder of Elia Martell, so Gregor is dead already. We the viewer have been strung along with the idea that Sandor has this grudge against Gregor... but we won't actually get to see a confrontation between the two. Next season Sandor will hear in passing that Gregor died from wounds he received in the duel, and he'll say "Fook. I wanted to kill the cunt me self" and that will be all.

We've been following Bran's mystic journey into the wild in search for the 3-eyed crow, and I bet he's going to die from a rabid raccoon bite, because-- ha-ha! --why not? KUNK-KUNK-KUNK smashed beetles.

-k

-1=e^ipi · June 8, 2014

One of the things that has kept me watching has been the anticipation that eventually the antagonists would see their fortunes turn for the worse, but so far there's been little sign it'll happen. I am really hoping they throw us a bone before the end of the season.

That is called the gambler's fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy

At the end of last season, there was that scene where Bran told the story about the cook who suffered a terrible curse when he killed a guest under his hospitality, and they immediately cut away to a scene with Walder Frey. And you figure "alright, that's some foreshadowing" and we anticipate some payback for the Freys... and we get frickin' nothing. If they keep teasing us like this and not delivering, they're going to lose people.

That's sort of the point. People keep expecting some divine justice or karma to balance things out, but it simply does not exist.

Do you remember the story last episode about tyrion's cousin that killed beetles? He tried desperately to find a deeper meaning or purpose behind the smashing of the beetles but there was none. Sometimes people get unlucky.

TimG · June 8, 2014

That's sort of the point. People keep expecting some divine justice or karma to balance things out, but it simply does not exist.

We are talking about entertainment - not life. People watch entertainment because they want something better than real life. That does not mean fairy tale endings but it does mean that characters which people care about (i.e. empathize with) must achieve some sort of victory in the end. In tragic stories this can mean some sort of redemption before the fall (e.g. Breaking Bad) but the victory must be there for it to be entertaining (BTW GoT is not a tragedy in sense of the term used in literature).

I agree with Kimmy's frustration that the series often fails to provide that sense that some sort of victory/catharsis is coming. When bad things like the Red Wedding happen there is no sense that the tragedy will facilitate the victory for the empathetic characters in the long run. The message is more like "well those characters are gone here are some new ones to get attached to before they are randomly killed off too".

Edited June 8, 2014 by TimG

bush_cheney2004 · June 8, 2014

I received two GoT DVD box sets as gifts last year (Xmas). They are still unopened, and shall remain so.

Mighty AC · June 9, 2014

The second Chronicles of Narnia was on basic cable today. Guess who's in it.

http://www.film.com/wp-content/uploads/2002/10/20313976-20313981-large.jpg

Tyrion himself!

Mr. Dinklage was the main character in a slow but interesting flick called "The Station Agent." It's worth watching.

kimmy · June 9, 2014

He also costarred with Carla Gugino in a short-lived science-fiction series called Threshold. I thought it had potential, unfortunately it was cancelled partway through its first season.

Wow! Tonight's episode was pretty exciting! Giants! Mammoths! Ygritte! The long-awaited return of Janos Slynt! The episode went by so fast that I didn't even have time to wonder what was going on at King's Landing.

"You remember that cave? We should have stayed in that cave." :wub:

-k

Boges · June 9, 2014

I received two GoT DVD box sets as gifts last year (Xmas). They are still unopened, and shall remain so.

And you wonder why people accuse you of trolling?

I'd actually like to see the First Season again, lots of things would make more sense in hindsight.

Apparently just about everything in that episode happened different in the books than it did in the show. But the show's version of the battle turned out great. Lot's of violence, lot's of redemption, lot's of nobel deaths and Jon Snow emerges as the coolest "Stark".

They can't even fit the Castle Black battle in one episode as there is still a huge army at the gates. The preview of the finale show Snow talking to Mance Rader. It also shows Dany, Bran, Arya and of course Tyrion. It'll be a packed episode. Why not just make these 12 episodes? It must make HBO more money than anything they have.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Boges

bush_cheney2004 · June 9, 2014

And you wonder why people accuse you of trolling?

My post was on topic...your personal attack is not.

Boges · June 9, 2014

My post was on topic...your personal attack is not.

Not really, you're not discussing the show, you're stating your distain for the show. Now if you'd like to discuss why you don't intend on ever watching the show, that's contributing to the debate.

bush_cheney2004 · June 9, 2014

Not really, you're not discussing the show, you're stating your distain for the show. Now if you'd like to discuss why you don't intend on ever watching the show, that's contributing to the debate.

Wrong....I stated my opinion of the show in far fewer words than you...without attacking any other member. Try it some time.

-1=e^ipi · June 9, 2014

We are talking about entertainment - not life. People watch entertainment because they want something better than real life. That does not mean fairy tale endings but it does mean that characters which people care about (i.e. empathize with) must achieve some sort of victory in the end. In tragic stories this can mean some sort of redemption before the fall (e.g. Breaking Bad) but the victory must be there for it to be entertaining (BTW GoT is not a tragedy in sense of the term used in literature).

I agree with Kimmy's frustration that the series often fails to provide that sense that some sort of victory/catharsis is coming. When bad things like the Red Wedding happen there is no sense that the tragedy will facilitate the victory for the empathetic characters in the long run. The message is more like "well those characters are gone here are some new ones to get attached to before they are randomly killed off too".

In that case, can't you just watch every other show, since you don't like non-cookie cutter plotlines? I find it very entertaining because it is different.

Boges · June 9, 2014

I think last night's episode shows the idea that there are few true good and bad characters on GoTs.

What's so evil about Mance Raydar's Army and the Wildling's cause? Their shock troops lose, they have been pillaging the North and have cannibals amongst their ranks so some would consider them evil, but aren't they just freedom fighters? But they also have the reasonably "good" Yygritte with them.

Castle Black is led by two heels but they have Jon Snow and Sam for us to care about.

The victory of the first part of the battle makes the audience happy because Jon Snow and Sam survive and of the two heels one fights with honour and the other is exposed to all as a coward.

So ultimately this episode SHOULD make everyone happy.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Boges

-1=e^ipi · June 9, 2014

Wow! Tonight's episode was pretty exciting! Giants! Mammoths! Ygritte! The long-awaited return of Janos Slynt! The episode went by so fast that I didn't even have time to wonder what was going on at King's Landing.

Most boring episode in the series. Entire episode took place in 1 location (the wall) and overall very little occured in terms of the plot. At the beginning the night's watch have the wall and there is a 100,000 army outside, at the end it is exactly the same. Apart from mance getting captured and a few minor characters dying, not much happened. Blackwater Bay fight was much more interesting.

Edit: I think the episode would have been a bit better if they had a scene or two with Stannis halfway through. Isn't stannis planning to aid the wall? How is he getting there? Isn't he planning to buy mercenaries using the loan from the bank of braavos?

Edited June 9, 2014 by -1=e^ipi

Boges · June 9, 2014

Most boring episode in the series. Entire episode took place in 1 location (the wall) and overall very little occured in terms of the plot. At the beginning the night's watch have the wall and there is a 100,000 army outside, at the end it is exactly the same. Apart from mance getting captured and a few minor characters dying, not much happened. Blackwater Bay fight was much more interesting.

I think this opinion is in the minority. IGN gave this episode a 10.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/06/09/game-of-thrones-the-watchers-on-the-wall-review

I actually thought the episode was going to show Jon's encounters North of the Wall in this episode because the episode went by so fast. That would be a tell-tale sign that I was completely engaged in the story.

It was focused, action packed and should have made the viewer happy because it was full of people acting honourably, something not often shown in GoT. Sans Janos of course.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Boges